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1992-06-09t '"own of Wappinger Zoning Board *,,,Azne 9, 1992 Minutes Meeting was called to order at 7:30 P.M. Mr. Sasser: Will the Clerk please call the roll. Mr. Levenson: Mr. Sasser: Present, Mr. Hirkala: Mr. Brooker: Present, Mr. Lehigh: Mr. Bitterlich: Absent Mr. Chairman Others Present E5 Page 1 Town Hall 20 Middlebush Road Wappinger Falls, NY Present, Present, Mr. Levenson: Zoning Administrator F,, n Mrs. Hardisty: Secretary to the Zoning Board �� F �D Mr. Sasser: The first item on the agenda is the approve*(offt�heopinutes from the May 12, 1992 meeting. ff 1A� Mr. Brooker: Made a motion to approve the minutes. mN"41AI A,,WS ftuMr. Lehigh: Seconded. .ote: All ayes `%w Motion carried. Mr. Sasser: Next item of the agenda is Appeal #1134 - At the request of Diane & Robert Henshaw, seeking an interpretation of Article IV Section 446.806 of the Town of Wappinger Zoning Law, regarding the square footage of a Caretakers Cottage/Guest House. To be located at 425 All Angels Hill Road, and being par- cel ##6357-03-088161 in the Town of Wappinger. Mr. Gardell, was present representing the applicants, Mr. & Mrs. Henshaw arrived a little late. Mr. Sasser: Mr. Gardell, would you tell us why you are here. Mr. Gardell: Well I guess the Planning Board asked for an interpretation of the Zoning. Mr. Hirkala: The Planning Board doesn't ask for interpretations. Mr. Sasser: Well they referred the applicants here for an interpretation. Is there anything aside from what you presented, that you wanted to talk to the Board about? Mr. Gardell: From my vantage point, I don't quit understand the question. It seemed that the Law was clear. Apparently it wasn't clear to the Planning hoard. Mr. Sasser: Are there any questions from the Board Members to Mr. Gardell? Page 2 *fir. Lehigh: Is this a guest house or a caretakers house? r. Gardell: Well I guess the zoning allows either, and I would say that the use is much more likely to be a guest house, then as a caretakers house. Once the building is built, I suppose it could be used for either one. Mr. Lehigh: Well going over what is allowed as a guest house, and what is allowed as a caretakers house, they have certain functions. A guest house is allowed as a guest house, a caretakers house is a caretakers house. From my interpretation they would not be the same. To me if you are asking me for an interpretation, you are going to ask me for an interpretation on one or the other. So I want to know what the specific use of that house are. Mr. Gardell: It would most likely used as a guest house. Mr. Lehigh: I have nothing on square footage, I have nothing on a map that shows me where you are building this guest house. I see the main house, I don't see a Mr. Gardell, pointed out on the map where the guest house is, and where the main house is. Because of the 19 acres, he couldn't draw the whole area on a large scale. Mr. Lehigh: I am trying to get an idea what you are asking for because accord- ing to the zoning you have to have this guest house in a certain position so you can have a two lot subdivision. And if you don't have it in that proper position when we are not going to consider it. rr Mr. Gardell: Correct. The main house is here, the guest house is right next to the septic system here. I have another map that would show you a little better. On this scale it is not very large, this is 19 acres. So the guest house is on this site, which is this total piece you see here. Mr. Lehigh: How many feet are we talking about here? Mr. Gardell: 3,000 square feet. Mr. Lehigh: 3,000 square feet, all right. How many feet are you talking about in the main house, do you have any idea? Mr. Gardell: No I don't, but I would mention that it is an old 2 story house, I would imagine that it is probable even larger then that, it is a 2 to 2 an a half stories high. But I don't know, I don't have plans. Mr. Lehigh: Let me lead you along a little. My interpretation of a guest house or a caretakers cottage would not be larger then the main house. And that is what I am interested in. I want to see the square footage, if it is bigger then the main house, then you are asking us for something that is not here. Mr. Brooker: May I interject something here. The zoning Law says 800 square feet, it doesn't say what size the house is. fir. Sasser: That's right there is no maximum here. Mr. Brooker: We are interpreting that, we are not going to ask him, it says 800 Page 3 square foot, it could be 10,000 square foot for God's sake. It doesn't say i,,,,.aything, there are no guide lines. Mr. Hirkala: There is a guide line right here in the zoning Ordinance. Read the definition, look at Buildings Main: a building in which is conducted the main or principal use of the lot on which said building is situated, page 4. Now the next on is accessory building, I don't think that is it. Mr. Levenson: Building Accessory, page 3. Mr. Hirkala: That is a accessory building, but that wouldn't be an accessory structure. I think there was another one I found, that gave me some direction, as to what, Use, Accessory: a use which is customarily incidental and subordi- nate to the principal use on a lot serves or is designed, arranged, or intended to serve. subordinate to, and subordinate to the principal use on a lot, is not necessarily something that is going to be bigger that what is there. It depends on what the purposes are. Mr. Sasser: A guest house would result in an subordinate use. Mr. Hirkala: Ok, it would mean a subordinate use, which is the guest house. If it was a commercial piece of property, you might find that an accessory use might be larger, because it might be a storage garage or something like that. The principal use, being an office or something like that. In a residential place I would assume that the normal thing would be a subordinate use, would be not necessarily larger then the principal use. That is a direction, it is ,ot a specific size, but it is a direction to go on, to determine the inter- *4wretation. Mr. Sasser: Subordinate, relating to the use, rather then the size? Mr. Hirkala: Exactly. There was a discussion on this. Mr. Brooker: How many square footage is the main house? Mr. Sasser: We believe it is larger. Mr. & Mrs. Henshaw arrived. Mr. Gardell: Do you have any idea how big? Mr. Henshaw: 4,500 or 4,800 square feet. Mr. Gardell: Almost 5,000 square feet. Mr. Hirkala: The main house will be almost 5,000 square feet. Mr. Brooker: I don't see anything about the square footage, as long as it doesn't exceed the main house. 11%W r. Sasser: Al do you have any other questions? Mr. Lehigh: I do but I will wait until everyone is done. Page 4 n Mr. Sasser: Mike, do you have anything else? *ftg r. Hirkala: There is one thing. On the EAF item 9, it says erection of a caretakers cottage. Presumes it is Article IV Section 446.806, I think that is wrong, because it is not an erection of a caretakers cottage. It's application of an existing building, as a caretakers cottage. Mr. Levenson: No, they are building a new building. This is a new building. Mr. Hirkala: I realize that, but the guest house, is going to be the existing building? Mr. Levenson: No, the 3,000 square foot house. The new 3,000 square foot house, that's why it was written. Mr. Hirkala: He just said the new 5,000 square foot house. Mr. Gardell: No the existing house is 5,000 square feet. Mr. Hirkala: The existing house on this property is right next to the road? Mr. Gardell: correct. Mr. Hirkala: Now that house is going to become the main house? Mr. Gardell: Is the main house. *4wx. Hirkala: It will remain the main house, and you want to build another building as a guest house? Mr. Gardell: That is correct. Mr. Hirkala: Will anybody permanently reside in this guest house? Mr. Gardell: I don't know, can you tell us. Mrs. Henshaw: Permanently? Mr. Hirkala: My concept of a guest house is non -permanent. Mr. Sasser: I think that is part of what we are here for tonight, is to but those stipulations on. We are not here to grant this or not. Mr. Hirkala: Right. I don't believe we are here to say how many square feet it is. It says here, question regarding the square footage of a caretakers cot- tage. What constitutes a caretakers cottage or guest house is a lot more then how many square feet it is. You can't answer the question, they are asking us for an interpretation answering one question of many. Mr. Sasser: I understand what you are saying. Do you have further question to help clarify? r. Hirkala: That is some of the things I was talking about, is it going to be ermanently occupied. As a matter of our decision it should become precedent in the Town that no guest cottage would be permanently occupied. It then Cm Page 5 becomes a second dwelling. rn **Kr. Levenson: But your memo for an opinion from Mr. Roberts, if you look on page 2 paragraph 4, says exactly what you are saying Mike. Mr. Hirkala: I don't understand what you are saying. This is confidential information to the Board, from our Attorney. I am just illuminating on some of the items that he is recommending, that I agree with. Mr. Sasser: Mr. Gardell, how many acres are there? Mr. Gardell: 19 and a half acres. Mr. Sasser: Will this meet future subdivision requirements? Mr. Gardell: Surely. Mr. Lehigh: Let me ask you a question, this is a guest house, we have already determined that. We haven't determined whether this is for a permanent resi- dence for somebody. Mr. Gardell: I really don't know what permanent is, if a guest is there for six months is that? Mr. Lehigh: I would say anybody over 2 or 3 months. '4r. Gardell: I think that somebody staying there for a couple of months, for e summer or something like that, or for the winter. Mr. Lehigh: From season to seasons I would go along with. I can see in a guest house that you are not able to rent it. In other words if it is a guest house it's a guest house, you are bring the people in to stay and you are not renting it to anybody. Mr. Hirkala: If that be the case, I have a question of the Henshaws. In this particular application, and the reason I use the words particular application, because the application specifically states the request is an interpretation referring to this site. Ok. Is there going to be separate utility metering for this, or are they going to be common utility metering? Mr. Henshaw: No, separate. Mr. Hirkala: That shows itself to me that it not necessarily a guest cottage. Mr. Sasser: I disagree with that Mike, I know of many guest houses and care- takers cottages that have separate meters. Perhaps just because of the physical distance between the buildings. It would be a practical matter to have separate utilities. I don't see where this has any bearing on this. Mr. Brooker: Let me ask you a hypothetical question. We call this a caretakers cottage, he can live there all year long, blows the driveway, what's the dif- ference. It is the way you word it. *"[r. Lehigh: They asked for a guest house, so I would give them an interpreta- tion on a guest house not a caretakers cottage. n Page 6 There was a discussion on this. M r. Hirkala: Is there a difference or no difference. Is there a difference between caretakers cottage and a guest house? Mr. Sasser: It appears to me form Zoning Law no. That they are handled the same way. Mr. Lehigh: To me there is a difference. Mr. Brooker: Yes, there is a difference between a caretakers cottage and a guest house. Mr. Sasser: But the way it is seen by the Zoning Law of this Town it is not handled differently. Mr. Lehigh: Ok, guest cottage, do we have the applicants word that they are not renting it right? I don't care if you have separate meters or not, but you are not renting out, and it is not to be built to be rented out? Mrs. Henshaw: No. Mr. Lehigh: Guest house. Mr. Brooker: I still think we are missing the point here. We are here to inter- pret the Law. It says, what's used for a guest cottage and what's used for a -aretakers cottage, one or the other. We are not to say how many square feet. *,,t is a minimum of 800 square feet Mr. Hirkala: No that is not the case at all. The Law that we are here to interpret, doesn't have any square footage in the book. 446.806 doesn't say anything about square footage except minimum. Each structure shall contain at least 800 square feet of usable floor area. Mr. Sasser: That is what Mr. Brooker is saying. Mr. Hirkala: So what he is saying is we have no interpretation then, it is strict it is in the Law, we have no interpretation, so what are we doing here? Mr. Sasser: We have an interpretation, because the Planning Board is not cer- tain what the definition of a guest house or a caretakers cottage is. Mr. Hirkala: So we are here to make a determination of what that definition is. Mr. Brooker: A guest house is not a permanent residence, people come and go in a guest house. A caretakers cottage is a place where somebody lives, he is a permanent resident, an employee of the estate or what have you, mows the lawn, takes care to the scrubs and so on. It is as simple as that. Mr. Hirkala: So what you are saying that is the interpretation that you are recommending? fir. Sasser: Yes, I think Mr. Brooker is saying that is what his opinion is. Page 7 en Mr. Hirkala: What I want to know if that is all the interpretation is, that you ae is an interpretation of what constitutes a caretakers, guest cottage, then rhave problems with that, I think there is a lot more then that. Mr. Brooker: What kind of problem do you have with it? Mr. Hirkala: The fact that I don't think that the caretakers/guest house, as an accessory use, ok, has a relationship to the main house that can be denied. That is all I am saying. That is why I asked the question, what the size of the main house is. Mr. Sasser: One of you at a time please. Mr. Lehigh: He is not going to build a guest house bigger then the size of his house. He is not going to build a caretakers cottage bigger then the size of his house. Mr. Brooker: That is what I mean. Mr. Lehigh: So then the size is relevant. Mr. Sasser: Al, do you have anymore questions? Mr. Lehigh: Right now we ascertained that it was a guest house, it's 3,000 square feet, the main house is 5,000. It is not intended for rental. And it is a guest house, which would be used for limited time. In other words you —ouldn't have one guest in for a year or two and so forth. And if that is what '*#Mwou are really asking for then I am ready to make the determination myself. Mr. Sasser: Mike, do you have anymore questions? Mr. Hirkala: I am trying to think, I am very confused. Mr. Sasser: Mr. Brooker, do you have anything you want to add? Mr. Brooker: If they are going to have to stick to the guest house, and not change it at all to a caretakers cottage, I am satisfied with that. Mr. Sasser: It also appears to me that, what they are trying to build is a guest house. It is subservient to the original house, it meets each and every requirement under a guest house or caretakers cottage, as far as I am con- cerned. I also believe that we have to take what this applicant is saying, is fact. I believe we have to make a determination, if what he is building is, a guest house or a caretakers cottage. We have to make that determination, send it back to the Planning Board, and let the Planning Board do what their purpose is. Mr. Hirkala: The determination we have to make is whether or not, what they are asking for is a determination of the Law we have here, caretakers/guest cot- tage. We have to clear up ambiguity that is in here for the Planning Board. Mr. Sasser: I don't see were there are any ambiguity at all. In fact quit rankly, I don't know why the Planning Board sent it back to us. Mr. Hirkala: Apparently the question is as to size, of guest cottages. Page 8 Mr. Sasser: I see no ambiguity whatsoever, and I believe that if the Town had anted to put a maxed size on it, they should put one on it. They haven't done lw5t . Mr. Hirkala: I believe they did put a max size on it when they made it an accessory use. Mr. Sasser: Which is what, smaller then the original? Mr. Hirkala: They didn't make it two principal uses they made it an accessory use, attached to the main building. Which certainly isn't bigger. Probably smaller. Mr. Sasser: And they have indicated that it is smaller. Mr. Hirkala: I am not saying they didn't, but that is my point, we are here to interpret, what the thing is. Apropos the request in front of us at 425 All Angels Hill Road. It doesn't say in general, it doesn't say rewrite the Law, it just says apropos this particular application. Mr. Sasser: Ok, lets open the public hearing. Is there anyone form the public that would like to speak? There was no one from the public to speak. Mr. Hirkala: Made a motion to close the public hearing. Mr. Lehigh: Seconded. *,,ote: All ayes. Mr. Sasser: Does the Board have any further questions? There were no further questions from the Board. Mr. Levenson: Negative Declaration. Mr. Lehigh: Made a motion to move for a Negative Declaration. Mr. Brooker: Seconded. Roll call vote: Mr. Lehigh: aye Mr. Hirkala: aye Mr. Brooker: aye Mr. Sasser: aye Motion carried. Mr. Sasser: Can I please have a motion with regard to this. Mr. Hirkala: I will make a motion. It is the opinion of myself, and whoever else that wants to vote with me, that apropos the request of the applicant for an interpretation of Section 446.806, the guest cottage should be subservient to the main house, smaller not larger, and it is to be a guest cottage, and there should be no renting of the guest cottage. If it is a caretakers cottage, it should be for wages apropos the IRS Laws State of New York. 11*Amr. Sasser: The motion is that it is a subservient in square footage? Page 9 en Mr. Hirkala: Subservient, not larger then, it is a subservient use. Which means a my view that it is certainly not larger than the main house preferably maller. Mr. Sasser: I just want to make sure we all understand your motion. Your motion is that it is physically smaller. Mr. Hirkala: My motion is that it be physically not larger. Mr. Sasser: Ok, and what is the second part of your motion? Mr. Hirkala: That if is a guest cottage, that it not be rented. And if it is a caretakers cottage, it's for wages. Mr. Brooker: God dam it, pardon the expression, is what I was trying to say before. Mr. Lehigh: Seconded. Mr. Levenson: Roll call vote: Mr. Lehigh: aye Mr. Hirkala: aye Mr. Brooker: I'll vote yes on that. Mr. Sasser: I am going to vote yes on that, because I believe it meets what the applicant is looking for. I believe it defines, what a guest house and caretakers cottage is, and I believe with those restraints that it falls under 446.806. '40tion carried. Mr. Sasser: Anything else to be brought before the Board tonight? Mr. Hirkala: I would like, a request to go to the Town Board from the Zoning Board of Appeals, for a look at this particular Section and any other that might be in the Zoning Law, that might need some tightening up. There was a discussion on this. Mr. Sasser, said that he would take care of this himself. Mr. Levenson: You want a review of 446.806, I will get this to the Town Board tomorrow. Mr. Hirkala: And any other. Mr. Sasser: Herb, before you send that to Al, if you are the one to send it, I would like Mike to see a copy of it, before it goes out. In order that he is comfortable with what we are asking him to, so we don't waste time. Mr. Hirkala: I know that the Town Board is planning a review, and all I am concerned with is that this Section, be reviewed. Mr. Sasser: And I think that in light of what happened, they would be happy to do that. 11%1"r. Levenson: Explained to the Board about the Planning Federation. Page 10 Mr. Lehigh: Made a motion to adjourn. r. Hirkala: Seconded. Vote: All ayes. Meeting was adjourned at 8:45 P.M. Very respectfully yours, Gay A n Hardisty, Secre Zoning Board of Appeals m in I LR -9 _ t Ise I LR -9 09 mown of Wappinger Zoning Board of Appeals June 9, 1992 Agenda - 7:30 P.M. 1. Approval of the May 12, 1992 minutes Public Hearing M Town Hall 20 Middlebush Road Wappinger Falls, NY Appeal # 1134 - At the request of Diane & Robert Henshaw, seeking an interpre- tation of Article IV Section 446.806 of the Town of Wappinger Zoning Law, regarding the square footage of a Caretakers Cottage/Guest House. To be located at 425 All Ange—t's Rill xo;_- ,-end being parcel #6357-03-088161 in the Town of Wappinger.