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1966-10-13• 1CTOBER 13. 1964 - pPECIAL MEETING Fulton - open meeting and adjourn meeting and go into executive session. Meeting cabled to order at 7:14 p.m. I would suggest we hear from the first one we have on the agenda - Mrs. Keeler. Keeler - I went down last week and got oopy of road resolution of last year. Three developers who were exempted do Dome under these road specs. *A11 devebopers who have made formal application to * "...who have made application for preliminary application' * which is different than filing for subdivision plat approval. This is for final platl It involves between $75,000 and *100,000 for the taxpayers. *It becomes effective immediately and all those who have not made formal application for approval for subdivision plats...* Quinn I believd there was an exempting provision. Bulger - while we're waiting, if Mrs. Keeler doesn't mind, are we going to get together with the first class town committee and if we are, why don't we set a date? Quinn - the whole resolution isn't here. You might refer this to whoever you want to for study. I have seen the resolution several times before and my reoolleotion is the resolution is effeotive Maroh 5 or 15, 1965, and that all those who had made application prior to that time were exempted from the provisions of this resolution. I think it would be speculation to do anything more than refer it at this point, unless we pull out the entire resolution. It is an excerpt from the minutes and a part of the resolution. There is further resolving paragraphs. Board wished to look at the minutes. Quinn - I think this question has been examined before. Keeler - the subject oame up and Mr. Quinn wrote a letter on it to the Planning Board. Quinn - I wrote an Lett Ms opinion but I don't think I wrote it as to -2- the date it beoame effective. I think Mrs. Keeler had written a letter previous to that to the Planning Board. Keeler - at that time many other people were questioning whether these particular developers came under it. Diehl - I remember we met here at the office one Sunday afternoon in reference to this to find out whether they did come under resolution. Myself, I was under the feeling that they should ooae under new road speos. At that meeting Mr. Quinn said they did not have to put in the mew roads and, seoondly, in his opinion, if we forced them to do so the Town would be sued. Fulton - was that in regard specifically to Fleetwood? Diehl - 1 think it was three different places. Gene 8ohuele was in the room at the time. 1 remember that speoifically. Mr. Quinn said if we forced them to put the new roads in, the Town would be sued and it was his opinion that the Town would lose. Quinn - I don't think you've ever got me down here on a Sunday afternoon. Diehl - from his opinion I changed my vote. On the basis of his opinion that the Town would be sued, 1 did change my vote releasing thea from the new roads. Naturally following his legal advise. Clausen - subdivision ordinano8? Quinn - subdivision regulations. Clausen - in that it says that a developer should have applied for formal applioation for subdivision plat? Quinn - I think the copy of the seotioh of the minutes that you have - what words does it end with? Clausen - I'll read on - "effective immediately and all new roads except those in subdivisions whose developers have made formal applioation to the Planning Board for prelielnary approval must oolply with these speoifioations." Quinn - formal application means that they go thropgh the prooedure -3- required by the Planning Board. Pages 211, 212. This is a final resolving paragraph. Clausen - two parts, preliminary layout and subdivision plat. Application procedure "within six months the applioant shall file application for approval of a subdivision plat.° Those developers wko did not file application for formal plat. Resolution said formal application is subdivision plat. Has Mr. Hankin filed yet for subdivision plat? Quinn - yes. I didn't draft this resolution, had I drafted it I could elaborate on it. The resolution speaks for itself, I question if it is subject to interpretation. You look at the thing and you oan see what it means. In the mind of either counsel or engineer involved with subdivision generally and in the praotioe with most Planning Boards of the State of New York in the Town Law there are three stages. Clausen - reading this it says applioation to Planning Board for Plat approval. Plat is crossed out and preliminary is written in. Francese - there was a disoussion'as to whether or not those people= applied with preliminary approval went under new or old specs. As I remember, Mr. Reilly was our attorney. We discussed it and it was deoided those people, we had deoided at that time, who had preliminary approval would not be under the new specs. Elaine - that was the resolution that was read to the Board. Worona - if that is the language, I am applying for Angelo Williams next week. Quinn - not a question of interpretation. Keeler - I don't understand why in one part you would say one type and then oonthadiot. Quinn - the word»formal0would mean that somebody would am bring MUXE or proceed a for approval before the Planning Board. Where a prospeotive developer is entitled to come in and, in effect, ask for advice about what he may do with his land. When it passes that stage and an engineer prepares a plat which is a piece of work which is definitive as to lines and layout end so forth„ I would think formal would apply. Keeler book which explains two stages. After preliminary, applicant submits final plot for formal approval. This is oonsidered formal. 1 don't understand why plat on this paper has been scratched out and talc ft ixtttts to written in ink. Quinn - probably beoause some members of the Board wanted definition. Even though it has been the practice of the Planning Board in this ?Town and many other Towns, there was never an authorization of two stage submission really until Seotion 276 or 27? and one of the other sections of the Town law changed, effeotive around July 30 or June 30 of this year. Keeler - our regulations specify they must apply another application. It involves a great bit of taxpayers' money. It was scratched out. It says two different things. Clausen - it seems that the Board in voting for the resolution could possibly have misinterpretted what the resolution so states. Francese - it is my recollection. Clausen - if there is a difference between formal application and simply preliminary approval it seems to me the resolution says one thing and the Town Board's further interpretation= was preliminary approval. Quinn - in the statute it uses the word formal Clausen • seoond part was written in !muck preliminary. Could have been misinterpretation. Diehl - I don't remember it being changed. Quinn - if we ever get into litigation on this thing there is a principal of law called de semis rule whioh freely translates what that law is low not concerned with. Keeler - talking in terms of $100,000. Who signed for it? Who authorized it? and why tt were two things put in that mean entirely different things? Now I find we have a Pew more pages and things scratched out. Diehl - what is coming up on it tonight I oertainly feel concerned. Keeler - County Planning Board claims formal applioation would be these and not the preliminary by any means. Reilly - except tic those who had made an application to the Planning Board at that time. Franoese - I remember a discussion. Keeler - formal filing. Now we find a little bit later in the resolution formal plat is written out and preliminary is written in, nobody knows anything about the atgzz signatures. Reilly - looks like my writing. Franoese - do you remember a discussion at the adoption of those? Reilly - vaguely. As I reoall it anyone who had made an applioation for preliminary amp= or final but who had submitted'to the Planning Board applioation would be exempt. Quinn - if you are interpreting and a court, if you want to get in an area where Mrs. Keeler is, the key would be a definition of the wort "formal". When people come in on preliminary approval in to these Planning Boards they come in formally. Casual approach would be one where somebody Dame in and said °Gentlemen, I've got a piece of land and I would like to know what I can do with it." They would say "Cut it up into lots". When he goes and does that, he Domes in formally. This would be the normal connotation of these words. Might I say this, that those minutes speak for themselves and until members of the Board could be called upon to state and recollect in affidavit form. The evidence of those minutes, subsequent to their drafting by the Town Board, would constitute very strontly on this. I doubt if any court would go beyond the language itself. It speaks for itself. However, this is a matter that can't be deoided here. If someone wants construction they must formally apply for such construction. Reilly - I remember discussion prior to the passing of that indicating -6 - that aside from being legal it wouldn't be ethical to hold somebody bound by new specifications who applied to the Planning Board prior to their adoption. Worona - they did this with Mr. Angelo Williams. Beoause Russ neglected to apply for extension. Fulton - you're out of order. Diehl - make a motion - in view of what I've heard here tonight, I would like the Timm Board power in appointing opinion of an outside attorney to cheat further into this and have his opinion and I would like to have the Board appoint Mrs. Keeler as a member of the oommittee representing the taxpayers. Fulton - any discussion? Clausen - as I understand it, there seems to be some contusion about the wording of the first resolution and interpretation of it. I think Nbr it is a matter of interpretation. We have our ter our own lawyers opinion on it. It certainly involves three, maybe more developers in the Town. I would like to make a motion tonight to have the developers go under the new road specs but t before this I would like to have an interpretation of another attorney. Not that I doubt the interpre- tatio$. I would second Mr. Diehl's motion. UMW Bulger - rely on my memory but I can recall as Reilly mentioned there was a disoussion as to what our intent was at that time and I oan vaguely recall the comment he made about the legality of changing the epeoifioations after someone had filed with the Planning Board for preliminary approval. I know it was my intent and I think it was the intent of the Board members that preliminary approval was to be the criteria. Keeler - I sat at that meeting, I was vitally interested in that resolution mlgmmmzros. I never heard a word about preliminary approval mentioned any time. This soratohed out word is mommas news to me and it doesn't make sense how you could be saying one thing on one page and one thing on another. I would have heard it, 1 would have picked it up. Then I would have known that particular builder would have been under old specs. I think that if no one recognizes the signatures, that pi.o* of paper should be looked into. Prandialss .0 my reoolleotion - legality of causing any developers who had preliminary approval - 1 believe it was Mr. Robinson who asked about the legality of this thing. I remember there was further disou- ssion there was a moral question involved in requiring those who had preliminary approval to change. It was my recolleotion at that time that there was preliminary approval and the wording preliminary approval appeared in that resolution as we finalized it that night and as it appeared in the minutes the next month when they were approved. It was my partioular recollection that this was the intent of the Board at that time. Keeler - why didn't yiu change the original part at that time? Frances. - I remember there was quite a bit of discussion in the moral problems of requiring this of the developer. Keeler - copy of application of Spook Hill Estates for preliminary layout. In the Subdivision Regulations it states that this was to be given to the Planning Board Chairman or the Town Clerk. This Was given to Mr. Ludewig. Fulton - is there any reason you Want to go =du kids over this resolution? Quinn - no sir, the minute book speaks for itself'. Flzlton - I don't agree with this motion. Votes Diehl - aye Frances. - no Fulton - no Clausen - aye Bulger - no Clausen • matter of interpretation is before the Board and closed three to two. The members are denied the fair opportunity to get another opinion. Fulton • ve have an attorney vho gave us an opinion and he gave it sell. Keeler • in our regulations it states that these applications are accepted by the Chairman of•the Planning Board and the Town Clerk. One was never accepted by anyone and one was accepted by Mr. Ludevig. Quinn • probably because of the fact that there is a group of individuals who have served without pay and voluntarily served services at certain times. Mr. Ludevig is at the Tovn I Hall. Developers Dome in and submit applications without monnoc counsel or attorney. 1 don't think that either our planning regulations or our pertinent regulations require great formality of subdivision approval exoept those of advertising and giving notice to interested parties. I think no court would attach ant signifioance to the fact that papers were received by Building Inapeotor, 4111,, Deputy Town Clerk, or anywheres else. I think that a Planning Board whioh wants to rely on formality would say to someone *you haven't given these papers to the ?Town Board or Town Clerk, come back next meeting.* I would think that they would watve any of these possible formalities in the regulations. I think there is s noplaoe in the statutes. For example, up in the Town of Milan there is a population of 946 people. They don't have a building inspector. They have a Town Clerk and a Planning Board Chairman that installs lines for the phone company. When you want to make an application at any stage for subdivision approval up there, you leave word tax at his house and he gets word to Chairman. There isn't anything in the statute of the regulations there but all of those gentle- men involved try to serve their community in the beat way possible. Clausen - the subdivision regulations - is this not a legal document? Now Quinn - I don't know what you mean by legal document. It has to a oertain extent - it is a duly approved set of guides and so it is recognizable in court for certain reasons. -9 - Clausen - if the intent is there, should not this be followed or should the regulations be left at anyone's interpretation? Quinn - oourts upheld that the spirit should be followed. There are no requirements that counsel appear in these things. There is really very little demand for formality. I would say as long as a one observes the general art spirit, he has sufficiently applied. Clausen - would you go along with the idea that we follow the spirit from this day forward that the applications should go to the Chairman instead of Building Inspector? Quinn - if these get in to the Town Hall, I think the public interest would be well -served. I think the Board Is able to set up its own agenda and take Dare of matters that Dome before it. Diehl - comment - amend this In the best of spirits also. Mrs. Keeler asked who she should address and she addressed you and I notice Mr. Quinn answered. On a simple question like that it is explained In about 5 minutes. Going bank to the same basso thing - one person could give this to Deputy Town Clerk. Fulton - I think Mr. Quinn made his statement quite clear. This is something that is generally more efficiently handled. Diehl - I would say then the power should be delegated to him If he is the most capable. Keeler - 1 would suggest that if you had been more formal over these years we wouldn't be faoed with the problems we are faoed with today. Bequest that 1 get a oopy of this document with the hand-written preliminary on it. Clausen - going back to the Sept. 8 minutes and reading excerpt of it here I believe is pertinent. Starts off - •Fulton - learned this afternoon from ......w "Clausen to Fulton ......" "..public hearing.... governor Motion that the Town Board make the governor aware of our request Seconded by Diehl. Bulger left with mechanics. Mr. Clausen - get together and draft a letter..." Two meetinga after they ran into late hours and we couldn't get together and draft request to the governor. I wrote out resolution and called each member of the Town Board and they approved the wording of the resolution. (read letter signed by Louis Clausen) I would like to ask each of you if I did not give you a phone call, read this to you and have your remarks that this was to the beat of you knowledge what was proposed. Fulton - yes, you called me, Clausen - point is I called you by phone read it to you and said I am sending this to you and you said okay. Mr. Bulger, I read this to you over the phone. Bulger - you read it to me over the phone. Clausen - you agreed. Bulger - no. I said I did not recall any mention of the Health Dept., but since you had already sent the telegram.... Clausen - read it a second time. Called the day after the telegram was sent. Mr. Francese, I did call you on the telephone and you agreed the wording was correct? Nunn Francese - actually I wasn't at that meeting and I made a statement of wanting to get the shown on the road. Clausen - didn't you say the wording was beautiful? Fulton - wording was good. Bulger and Francese - you called on a Saturday, telegram was sent on Friday. Clausen - I sent the telegram about 11:00 Friday night and I wanted you to hear the wording first. It was quite late and you said send it. Fulton - I expected that this man was responsible enough to contact all members of the Board. Clausen - one night you called me at 2:30 in the morning. Fulton - that's right, but I don't call you after I did it. I called you to tell you to deliver water to the people in Fleetwood. Clausen to Fulton - I called you previous to sending this telegram and you said send it. I want to bring out the point that no invest- igation had begun and I called Fulton to find out if an investigation was forthcoming and he said no. =MR Tuesday, I believe, I received this - "This is in response to your telegram of Sept. 15....State Health Dept. tt Thursday, Sept. 22 conference in Albany..." Vassallo, Bogedein, Assistant Solicitor General, Fulton, and Quinn have been invited to attend. I asked you if you had given attorney Quinn the power to advise the Assistant Attorney General and you told me no. For your information, I think it was pretty poor tactics by Mr. Quinn to advise state department before any member of the 2MM Town Board gave him authorization to do b so. His is to serve the Town Board and no legislative. He did not have the courtesy to tell me of my resolution or that he told the Health Dept. anything. I don't appreciate this. Fulton - in the first place, even the supervisor doesn't get into the office without Town Attorney being there. When attorney general's office makes contact, they contact either the supervisor or the attorney to the Town. It just so happens that day they couldn't get hold of me and the other !nu* person they were aware of up there is was attorney to the town. Mr. Quinn, in my opinion, was present at that meeting, heard the resolution, and stated that the resolution wasn't w as it was stated. Clausen - attorney's interpretation is to the Town Board and not to agencies outside the Town Board. Mr. Quinn does not interpret my resolutions. At least he could call me and ask me what my resolution was. Fulton - i think Quinn was prefectly in his rights to interpret that resolution. Regardless of resolution, the attorney interprets it. Diehl - let's interpret it right. Clausen - attorney does not make decisions outside the Town Board. Fulton - the fact that he had done this thing without contacting Vs ma 2 members of the Board until the day after it was sent was Diehl - Clausen, in my opinion, has all the right in the world as an elected official. Fulton - you say in the alleged violations wi$kxicks within the Dutchess County Health Department. That's not what the resolution said. This telegram is a willful act. There was nothing in this resolution that specifically pointed out concerning activities of the Dutchess County Health Department. That was sent and it was an irresponsible act since two members were told the day after. When someone sits down and does that Diehl - in my opinion, if it is not in writing, it was the intent. Who else can you investigate? The County Health Department is responsible. Fulton - that comes under State Health Department. Diehl - two people responsible. State should investigate Dutchess County. Fulton - there are certain things in this Town that are under the jurisdiction of the State directly. Diehl - would like to hear what Clausen says. Clausen - We have here in the minutes Mr. Quinn referring to issuance of permits in sewer plants. The state releived its control quite some time ago to the County Health Department. H Is it the County Health Department's responsibility to, I understand that the County Health Dept. receives application first and if it needs State approval the County sends it up to the State and the State stamps it. Did the County ever send application to the state and receive it back again or does Oakwood plant still lack State approval? We have in this Town water plans, sewer plants, some that have not received authorization from one body or the other. I, as a pcs representative of the people, feel there is a potential health hazard of water and sewer. We have had Oakwood here for three or four years and it has not been solved yet. I say that the State come down and investigate actions of the County Health dept. It also involves the Town. We could have been very delinquent. It involves developer, town, and the County. Who t else would you advise investigation of? Obviously the *mitt jurisdiction lies with the County. The intent of this telegram still was the State should come by down and investigate the County Health Department, the Town, and the developer. If you try to say that this is some sort of intent to criticize the County Health Dept., you are wrong. Fulton - I asked for an investigation. I don't wish to accuse anyone. Let the investigation take ft its course and find out who is responsi- lite ble. The investigation in Oakwood Knomis is in progress, is still -14- in progress, there was a meeting last Thursday, and further meetings are expected. I would like you to bring up specific accusation right now of violation. Clausen - you are on t record as wanting a local investigation. Are you still in favor of it? Fulton - I would be in favor of having one locally. Second telegram to Marshall - remarks made by Quinn do not reflect the feelings of the Town Board and are not part of the resolution passed by the Town Board. Quinn - trying to give the Board some background on this. About quarter to 5 on a Tuesday afternoons 1 received a tatp telephone call from a gentlemen who the operator identified as Mr. Palmer, assistant secretary to the governor. He said he had tried to reach the supervisor but was unable to reach him at his place of employment. He then read Mr. Clausen's first telegram to me and said do you know of a resolution or a motion that was passed by the Town Board of the Town of Wappinger requesting an investigation of the Dutchess County Health Dept.? At that time, I went on my recollection of h what traneps#►red at the meeting of September 8. I have not to this date seen the transcribed minutes of that meeting. I said I know at the meeting of Sept. 8 there was a considerable discussion of the fact that the Supervisor had some time previous requested investigation of sewer and water problems at Oakwood Knolls. I said my recollection was that a motion was made by some member of the Town Council and after it was passed another member got into a colloquy with him about the wording of the motion. Subsequent to that a member of the press indicated she had talked to somebody about the condition of lack of final approval .of the water plant and question as to the owner of the water works system could charge for water. About 45 minutes took place recalled that some motion came from it and the jist of it was that the governor be asked to expedite the investigation that the supervisor had previously requested. I informed Mr. Palmer that to my recollection no one had requested an investigation of the County Health Dept. This is still my recollection. Within an hour and a half after that I attended a Town Board meeting. During recess I stood outside and informed Mr. Clausen of my conversation. He said since then he received a telggram over the phone. I said that I never thought that any request was made in motion or otherwise for tk investigation of the County Health Dept. There is presumptive evidence that the minutes speak for themselves. They are taken with certainformality and to the beat of the ability of anybody taking them. Z sent' i did contact Town Clerk and asked if the minutes were transcribed and if they she could give me any idea of the minutes. She told he sks/had been transcribed and puma presented to hers by the young lady t who took them the previous Thursday night and she indicated there was one problem she had and she was quite preterbed. She indicated that the evening the minutes had been given to here Mr. Clausen case to here and asked if he could look at them. He then in circumstance asked if he could look at them over night and stated that he was coming in Friday night to audit bills and he didn't appear on Friday night and she made sever calls in an effort to get these minutes back and she did not get these minutes back until the following Monday intinstsgl. afternoon. I had no thought in my mind that there was an alteration of these minutes. I um would say that these very minutes that ustirg which Mr. Clausen g bases his assumptions on are certainly suspect. It is a highly unusual act for any member of the Town Board of any Town in this state to take a set of minutes out before they are approved. The recollections arcs he heard tonight were generally an urge to get an investigation of Oakwood Knolls under way, but there was never any action taken at that Sept. 8 meeting to make an investigation of the Dutchess County Health Dept. There might have been some implication in somebody's mind. Recollection that never was their any implication to investigate health department. Clausen - sitting here listening to a new low in accusations. He is either mixed up or trying to subject me to an act which I am not guilty of. Going back to a telephone amt call the night we had our public hearing, the night I received the telegram we had a Town Board meeting in the back. At that time you did not elect to tell me of the matter of contacting the state. You should have raised the discussion before the meeting was adjourned. I did not have the telegram then and you knew it and it was your position in bringing it up. 11:00 I was on my way home and Mr. Fulton said"before you leave, Mr. Quinn has some- thing to tell you about a meeting." Mr. Quinvicnew about this meeting and I was not told until I was ready to leave. To say that we talked about this telegram is an absolute falsehood because we did not mention or discuss it. About the minutes, did you say Elaine Snowden told you? Elaine - you asked me for the minutes, I gave them to you to look over and apparently they were in your possession. Clausen - asked you for the minutes to be taken out for the meeting? Blaine - this was at a meeting. You asked if they had been km= transcribed yet. Clausen - you had returned t some of the papers you had there. The point is I asked to see the Town Board minutes at the open meeting after which I did take the minutes home. Allegations of Mr. Quinn that I could have taken them home and it was suspect that I could didn't have changed them. I daw*lt/even know what papers you meant. To even say that I had taken them home and could have copied them over is a new low. My annunciation is that you would even accuse anyone to take the minutes home and change them. Quinn - I am not assuming, I am saying that the minutes are suspect when you keep them out for a period of four days. The minutes are suspect, not you. Clausen - I would like to simply state with a you as my town attorney I think 1 am going to have to hire an attorney to protect myself. Diehl - as Mr. Clausen said, I do believe Mr. Quinn's remarks are would out of order. I dttd/not make such remarks of any of the other members. I would like to go back to investigation. Mr. Clausen, I remember saying that I would second motion if he would include Dutchess County Health Department, Mark Ritter, and Town be investigated. This wasn't in the minutes. A month before that Mr. Quinn and I had words on the floor. It is not in the minutes. There things are left out, I would say, by accident. I would like to ask Mr. Clausen to continue investigation or start it on the conditions that we did start it. Clausen - mom I would like to make a motion that the Town Board go on record allowing the State to hold a public hearings within the Town of Wappinger to see if problems that we have had in the past on water and sewage can be rectified immediately. Diehl - put in specific clause - investigation include Dutchess County Health Department, The Town of Wappinger, and Mark Ritter. Under those conditions I e second it. Fulton - I've asked for an investigation. The investigation is in the process. As far as i am concerned, I cannot prejudge the total situation right now. I know as far as Oakwood Knolls situation is concerned, I have been to Albany disammisowasormakta discussing this. State Health Dept. Is is actively engaged in this stigmat±als situation, I don't know what the point here tonight is. I'm satisfied with the way things are need going. I am pre -judging . I don't see any sndimmito go any further at this time. HHKX Diehl - made statement to us that the Dutchess County Health Department should not be investigated. Fulton - I said I was not going to pre judge who was responsible. Clausen - let us know your intent. Fulton - for what? Clausen - for an investigation. Fulton - I said I would be in favor az 215 of having a hearing here in the Town of Waappinger. Clausen - we have no investigation locally, this is simply resolution to go on record of having investigation locally. Fulton - I see no reason to specify. Diehl - the investigation is being conducted by New York State with the cooperation of the Dutchess County Health Department. I canlsee how the County Health can investigate itself. Dutchess County is investigating itself. The article stated New York State with the cooperation of the Dutchess County Health Department. Fulton - got that from Albany. Diehl - is the investigation being conducted by the State Department with or through cooperation of the County Health Department? Fulton - was sent to Hollis Ingraham and Louis Lefkowitz. To my know- ledge that is who the investigation is being carried out by. There was no indication the County Health Department could and in the same statute I was to be asked questions of and I was to be asked questions of. To use term that County Health Department is investigating itself, I don't see where it was. Diehl - why are they so much a part of this investigation? I believe it is true. Fulton - not to my knowledge. You've read an article in the paper. To my knowledge, it is not true. I have asked for investigation. It is in progress. County Health Deibartment is being asked questions. We have been there and discussed questions. As far as I am concerned, the investigation is satisfactory to me. Clausen - since you are so insistent on leaving Mr. Diehl's recommenda- tion out, original motion was to investigate so that any problems we wgcxhave may be resolved immediately. Fulton - if you're referring to the present investigation that is going on, I *acs asked them to hold the hearings down here. At that time they told me they did not know what nature the hearings would take. If you ask for this at local level, I am in favor of it. Clausen - that the State continue its ix. investigation, furthermore, come down into the Town of Wappinger and hold p local public hearings in reference to our sewer and water problems. -20- Quinn - should be indicated again - at that first meeting Mr. Bogedain, *Mr. Reilly, Mr. Hill, Dr. Vassallo, few members of Solicitor General's staff, as well as p representatives of the Town of Wappinger all parties other than Albany officials were there to be investigated. Just to tie in Solicitor General indicated that the punt paramount interest of Albany was to not find facts because they had ptfn facts primatily before them. The facts at the conference were most confirmative of what the files already showed. This is why they called to sewer up counsel-to check a solution to primarily/tknummentsuniamesinft problem and secondary degree, water system in the Oakwood Knolls development. Solicitor general pointed out there were several actions pending in the courts. Neither had any right to pre-empt the courts on any matter before them. Solicitor general's office, with help of the H Health Department would make tk decision as to whether they would hold hearings down here or make decisions at their level. The fact that this problem should be solved at the local level just as quickly as possible and people at the local level would have help from the tun various wind agencies. I don't think there should be any solution impression given. I got no impression that this body was to come down to this town and start holding hearings. Several actions in the court include declaratory judgement action. Diehl - I would like to second Mr. Clausen's revised motion. Bulger - sat here throught the evening. Started with controversial wording. Started with problems of being informal. Now I find t if we go back to original motion on the floor, we are about to vote on whether or not we will let the State come in here and make an investig- ation. It is ridiculous. We don't have the power to stop them. Clausen - made new mete resolution. Bulger - point of order - I believe normal rules i call for one motion on the floor at a time. Clausen - it seems Mr. Bulger, as Mr. Quinn has said all night long, this business of formality - you sometimes go through and sometimes you don't. Previous motion should have been voted on before it was discussed. Bulger - I asked for discussion on the motion. Clausen - withdrew original motion - Diehl withdrew second. Original motion withdrawn. Clausen - Town Board go on record asking the State Department of Health to continue its investigation by holding open public hearings within the Town of Wappinger to gather what may be pertinent testimony in trying to conclude an investigation of our water and sewage problems. Fulton - who are you addressing this to? Clausen - the governor. Francaise - you're asking that the State Department of Health continue investigation. Clausen - directed to governor asking that his agency continue its investigation. Bulger - I don't think the motion says what Mr. Clausen wants it to state. It is addressed to the Department of Health and we are sending it to the Governor. Clausen - send to governor and he will inform proper agencies to hold their investigations. Who is conducting it now? Fulton - it appears that the State Department of Health and the Attorney General's office. State Dept. of Health brought in as a party in this thing. Clausen - amend it to read "to governor and Attorney Mas General's office: Attorney Geneeal's office finish their investigation by holding open public hearings within the Town of Wappinger. Bulger - wouldn't it be better to write the governor telling him we are under the impression that an investigation of the sewer system at Oakwood Knolls is going on by appropriate state agencies and request that in the course of this investigation that they hold public hearings in Wappinger so that they may gatheraxgc any facts that anyone local makes clear. 22,02012X12 Do we want it to finish investigation by holding left= hearings here or should they be free to determine when they will come here? Just trying to get record straight. Seconded by Diehl.- magimas Vote: Bulger --no Francese - no Fulton - no Motion made by Bulger, seconded by Francese. leave open whether it should be joint or singular effort. Diehl 2 - so similar with the exception that Bulger is making motion instead of Mr. Clausen. Bulger - left open in the motion who should send the letter. After we have adopted resolution, if we are going to, we should then decide who is going to send the letter and how it should be worded. Someone should be authorized to draft it and should be gone over i by all of us so we are satisfied with the wording before it is sent. 23002 Fulton - letter such as this is normally composed by counsel and reviewed by the Town Board. Vote: Unanimous (5 ayes) Clausen - later turn letter at over to attorney, come back to motion agssma again and see sanocs if we agree with wording on it. I can see if three agree and two don't* may not get intent of my oriskinal motion, but I go along with it. Who is going to write the letter? If I may, with all due respect to Mr. Quinn, perhaps we might elect some member of the Town Board to draft this. I think when we decide on final draft letter counsel see it. Francese - motion to Have Mr. Bulger and Mr. Louis Clausen draft this letter for further approval by the Town Board. Bulger & la Clausen abstain. Motion Carried - 3 ayes. Elaine - we need permission from the Town Board for the lending of : voting machines. Ii New Hackensack Fire District would like to borrow two machines on December 6 for their elections. Mr. Gray from the it school requests one voting machine for Thursday, October 20. School will pick it up and return it to its place. Francese - do our custodians x:matip normally go with these? Elaine - yes. Motion made by Francese to allow New Hackensack Fire District to use two voting machines on the dates specified and Wappingers Central School District gem have use of one voting machine on the date they specify. Seconded by Diehl. Mr. Bulger abstained. Motion carried -- 4 ayes. Fire Chief Anthony Cinelli - letter requesting help for small boy. Diehl - I don't know what power this Board has, but if there is anything within the power of the Board, Is certainly feel we should be part of it. We can all attend, but I don't know about funds. Financial help will be appreciated. -24- Elaine - I got the impression that they would like about $100 from the Town to help on this. Worona - I don't know if there are any funds available, but I have small oontribution - (oontributed money) Bulger - Board should take care of it privately. Mr. Cornell donated, Mr. Eck donated, Mr. Lafko donated, Mrs. Keeler donated, Mr. Bloom donated. Let the reoord show the letter was received and that members of the Town pubiio have graciously oontributed and that the Town Board also will make an effort to raise some funds. Bulger - business of asking is the committee that recommended first class town to get u*xI some publicity. Fulton - set a date for a meeting? Bulger - 1 suggested next Thursday. Do we need full board, or assign it to a committee? Next Thursday, Full Board, First Class Town Committee. RULES SUSPENDED Malcolm Cornell - I think it is about time somebody brought before the Board one of these applications is not even signed. It's just an application with a signature on it. I had my roads and pipes in and other developers had not even broke ground. I built as a builder buying lots. In the meantime I bought lots in April. I was given sets. At the time I did not know of any new apeos. I submitted my preliminary application and I was informed in June that there were new apeos. I was forced to take out pipe and put in new pipe. Yeti, I see flagrant things like this around. It quite disturbs me as a large investor in the Town of Wappinger. Quinn - this set of papers that Mr. Cornell hands to the Supervisor appears it to be a written appjsiaation for preliminary approval of a subdivision for Edgehill Manor, Inc., signed by Edgehill Manor, Inc., by James Thomann. What is the complaint with respect to that application? -2g - Cornell - with this application there was just papers submitted and not ground broken. Until the first of June, the new specs were not printed. I am oompeting with developments under the old specs. I oan out the price of one house by $500 if they would elleviate just one item. Fulton - this applioation for Edgehill, Section ITT with these dates on it show back to Deoember 19, 1964. Diehl - some developers are going under preliminary plans, why aren't you? Cornell - unfair competition. I paved streets before he has to. Has done everything in an outstanding way. Sas been unfairly oompromised because developers can sell for lower prices. Cornell - apt application oame after Maroh 4. I'm question as to why I couldn't obtain the specs when t bought the property. The resolution wasn't obtainable to me over this counter. Application you oall formal wasn't even signed and acoepted at the top of the page. Developers that applied then are just beginning to break ground. Quinn - this is one of the developers whose lands lie within the Rockingham Sewer District and who were held up by Town Board aotion from some time in the fall of 1965 until approximately the first of June 1966. They are one of the developers who are building sanitary sewer laterals and mains to oonneot to Sohoonmaker Plant and are contributing $24,000 towards improvements of the plant. There was a period Sohoonmaker, Apple Orchard, Edgehill III, and Dutohess Heights, this group were in Rockingham! they were being held up on action we took on Rockingham. Cornell - what about Sam Hankin? Quinn - he does not lie within this. These were the ones who received additional time from the Planning Board to apply for approval of their final plot. Extension from the Planning Board. Worona - regulations for subdivisions of the Planning Board provide for filing of a final plot plan within 6 months and there are no provisions -26- for any extensions. Land subdivision regulations make no provision for any extension. Cornell - I can compete with developers for price and quality, but not unless the rules are alike. I would like to int say one more timet I could not attain any rules until I had roads out and I was installing drainage. Fulton - who did you apply to for these? Cornell - I came to this desk and go, a set of old specs. Fulton - not the specs of the Town Board. Cornell - you would not normally come to the Town Board. Quinn - could go to the Highway Department. They have been very careful to aprise all developers as to what specs s were in effeot. Cornell - I was aprised by Mr. Kelley when I went to put the pipes in. I've never squawked. 'to, Fulton - apparently, if you it had gone to the Highway Department at that time, you would have been able to straighten the whole thing out. Quinn - number of people who, sine January 1, have gone to highway dept. and gotten highway specifications. K.Clausen - the developers try to bypass me and go to somebody else. There are too many that go Wits to the engineer and make arrangements without coming to me at all. Cornell - Kelley only told me that the speos had been changed. K.Clausen - Mr. Cornell has been one of the most cooperative builders that has ever come txxths into the Town of Wappinger. His roads are oiled and stones and they look beautiful. I do feel Mr. Cornell is most 000perative of any builders that has come to Wappingers Falls. That is in Seotion II of Wildwood Forest. lir Mrs. Keeler - I think this goes right back to the speoifioations. Second page is invalid, unfair to builders. Want explanation at the next meeting why this thing was changed. -27 - Fulton - it Is in the minutes of the meeting. Cornell - don't think it is within the spirit of the Board to take advantage of anyone. George Brannen - when Mr. Cornell asked for the road speos, it wasn't Mr. Clausen who was road superintendent. Worona - that is not the issue either. He is not against the speos. He is speaking to the foot that he has complied with new speos. There are other developers who are still under the old speos and have not started any oonstruotion. Logan - why the extensions were permitted in the Town of Wappinger. Keeler - exouse was the State and County were holding these builders up, 1 oontaoted State and County Health Dept, and they said it is often the developer who holds himself up. He oould have oome before the Town Board that night and denied the transportation oorporation. Fulton - Mr. Hankin was prevailed upon by this Town Board to hold up beoauae there were plans and for him to hold up would benefit the Town. Louts Eok - $aroh 1, 1965 brought in applioation and not his plans. IX Within three days he was able to go along with the old specs? Keeler - I understand in the regulations you're supposed to submit 4 maps with the applications. Why the disorepenoy 2 or 3 dated March 15 and 1 dated March 1? Quinn - generally speaking, in these Towns those facilities are not shown on other subdivision maps submitted to the Town. That map shown on preliminary once in =mkt awhile but as a rule separate maps and different files. I don't know what you mean by the later ones. the ones that to to the State for approval of the water system might show more data than normal subdivision apiioation. Engineers don't like to see water maps clustered with this other stuff. Keeler - March 1 and Maroh 15 maps - you will see two different maps. Bulger - Resume rules, seconded by Francese. -28- Clausen - this business of extensions - the Developer, Hankin, was given by the Planning Board, a fourth extension. As of March, I believe Maroh 15 the Town Board gave him extension to three months. I believe this extension was up on August 15. Subsequent to that, X. Hankin went before the Planning Board and asked for a fourth extension. His attorney sub*itted tants to the Planning Board that the TowfrBoard had promised to give him a fourth extension because they said if he would stop building or don't even start he would be cooperating with the Town Board and we would, therefore, grant him a fourth extension. Do we have any oorrespondenoe from the 2 period of March to August at the time when the extension was up,ia does the Town Board have any correspondence to Mr. Nankin that he would get a fourth extension? Fulton - not to my knowledge. Clausen - mf understanding he said this before the Planning Board. Mr. Vandewinokel Dame before the Board. Quinn - what happenid while we were going through the Rockingham stuff last aping Hankin started asking for a sewage disposal corporation and one night he was refused as being approved. He and his sone were in here several ties during late winter and early spring. I thiazin April he name in again and not only to the Town Board, but to my office the next day and said he had reoeived extension from the muligU Planning $Gard and that he wouldn't make any further applioation for transportation oorporation at that time. Then he came to me about the first or middle of July and said he was going to renew his applioation for his transpor tation oorporation or in other alternative renew his applioation for extension of his plans. I told him he would have to address himself to Town Board or Planning Board for extension. That night we sat down here in this office, Mr. Vandewinokel disoussed it with us. I made it clear to Mr. Vandewinokel that this man had all winter and spring in requesting a transportation and I personally did not feel it was advantageous at this time to let him form one. It was a long discussion here about which specs -29.. he would be under. AS a result of that discussion Mr. Vandewinokel was advised that he be given a time oertain to get under way by the Planning Board and that if I he didn't get undeh way by that time oertain he would be under new spews. !R Clausen - between Maroh and August he did not owls before Town Board and ask for corporation or anything else. Re went with the Planning Board and his attorney said he had some agreement with the Town Board. Mr. Rankin's third extension went out before he even oame in for the fourth. Quinn prior to the time the extension ran out made application to the Planning Board for extension and he told Planning Board the Town Board had made an agreement with him. Clausen - in the meantime his extension peltiod ran out. Quinn - there is no statute of limits to aot on that thing as long as they aol mutt within a oertain amount of time. l,► Keeler - date of meeting? There was no 15th meeting and all of a sudden a letter materialized. Letter from ImAkims Hankins attorney to Planning Board. This letter of August 8 was addressed to the Planning Board. Quinn - Rankin applied by letter to the Planning Board and based request on the fact that Town Board had held him up. Clausen - Towb Board never made an, agreement with Hankin that he would get a fourth. If he m said Town Board would grant him a fourth, it was not true. Quinn - Town Board oouid not grant extension to them. I think on the facts that obtain since last winter he was pretty[ sure he Is would not get a transportation corporation from this Town. Franceae - that is specifically the reason why Ace requested meeting with us. Now Clausen — he went before the Planning Board and said he wanted another extension based on the Sown Board granting a fourth extension stating that the Town Board had held him up and the Town Board made some agreement -30- to grant him fourth extension. We never gave him any reason to believe this. 'fir.► Fulton - he was applying to form a corporation. He had the intentions of forming a corporation. Conversation was to discourage him from filing for this oorporation. Clausen - this was the reason he got the third extension. No we find that he goes before the Planning Board and requests from them. Diehl - in regard to extensions, how does the Planning Board stand now? General case for the future, I heard Mr. Vandewinokel state he woutd like some kind of polioy. Quinn - they would have to draft regulations and present them at a public hearing for use by the Town Board. No matter what any regulations says, if et any time any agenoy of this Town prevents a developer from going ahead, then he's got problems. Fulton - I would like to point out that the primary purpose hasn't started yet. We have been disoussing this business of police and olerks and so forth and during the course of the last meeting it has come to my attention thatt it appeared to me that one of my polios problems in the village is a person looks in the directory for a listing for polio,. All they find is village police. It seems to me that what I want is - the telephone books will be out bn the 20th. I would like to propose that I would be allowed to list under the Town of Wappinger police and indicate number of the sherriff's offioe and the state polios. I think that this and some advertising in the shopper and a little education could save us t some money here. I would like to present that to the Board Diehl - very good idea. Go one step further - some way we can get stickers for the telephones and leave blank space for fire department. 'lbw I would like to also say that I read your oomments in the paper saying an answering service costing $10,000 a year - it is off base. I think the Village would think so. I think the whole thing was b passed that we < -31- look into this and discuss it. I believe that the Village trustees will feel the same about it. Fulton - put In the budget. Diehl - when it was put into the budget saying that if a workable agreement could be found the money would be there to use. Fulton - somebody said figure of about $10,000. Diehl - agreed it was all right to put $10,000 in and the money would be there. Elaine - under publio safety. Clausen - your idea here is to list Town of Wappinger? Fulton - usually it is in the phone book, it Is wappinger, town of, and lists offices. In the area of emergenoy I would like to have them list police proteotion. We can advertise those numbers as our police proteotSOn numbers. Franoese - brought up and suggested at one of our meetings with the Sherrif'a nttta= department. • Fulton - the expense of this is going to be the oharge of putting this in the book. Bulger - stickers - I think we should consider this and also ask Town Clerk if it would be possible to include stiokers in the tax bills when they are mailed. Fulton - can we put the fire number on this? Bulger - no problem if they go out with the bills. K.Clausen - who gave out those numbers to the paper that was stated in the paper kkutxmommtmtnt there? It is wrong absolutely through. I don't know where they oame from. It was put In the paper that the Supervisor of the Town was against everything that was in that. V= Now Cause of the high risf in taxis. Fulton - the reoord shows that I voted against the proposal. Paper did not say that I objected to eaoh and every item of that budget. -32- K.Clausen - I would advise the papers there to hold their figures bank because they are not true. Supervisor was against - ask Mr. Quinn, are you aware of the new signs we have to put up in 1967? I asked for $10,000. I do not believe this Board is aware of new signs that the Town is liable for every accident if those signs are not put up. Quinn - the statute maintains the erection of certain signs in the Town. If they don't comply with the statute you would oertainly raise a problem. I SMMtXXUXUXIX wouldn't say they are responsible for every aodident. L.Clausen - some members of the Board felt we didn't have to appropriate 310,000 that the State oould not mandate the Town to put up certain signs. Quinn - I would never question or indicate that the figure.for 310,000 was rttk right. L.Clausen - question is that there is requirement by the State that signs be put up. K. Clausen - it was said up there that a letter would be sent to every Supervisor of the town that they would be responsible to put them up - signs in 1967. I have papers if you want to see thea. Mr. Bulger said he has studied those papers and there is nowhere* where he can find -that the State oannot demand us to put up those signs. Fulton - business of Oakwood Knolls ,. have you gone over this oontraot that yob got? Quinn - purchase. As I advised you in a reoessed session last week, I made available to Town Clerk to mail out contract by the Ritter Const. Corp., Oakwood Water Works, and Mark Ritter of one part and tge Town of Wappinger of the other part for the acquisition of the Water pima plant and system at Oakwood Knoll There is one contract in existence covering this matter to purchase the oombined faoilitiee for 3100,000. This oontraot essentially protides that both systems, the two of them, be acquired for the combined gross Emma price of 375,000. It provides -33- that there be withheld from that gross price of $75,000 a sum which vim" is now $5300 or $5400 and that that sum be paid sf over by the Town of Wappinger and deducted from the purchase price. Turned over to the County ofsait Dutchdss for operating from December 8, 1965 to operation of this contract. In addition, the contract provides f that from that gross price of $75,000 the Town deduct & $868 and some cents and anytime it is to reimburse itself for operating and am maintaining plant during good part of the month of December 1965. In addition the contract provides that on ams consumation that sellers interest w shall waive collection of any back charges by residents of Oakwood Knolls. The contract provides that the Town of Wappinger may, upon execution of the agreement immediately take over both the water and the sewer facilities and that miiir it may and shall have the exclusive right to make charges for sewer service and distribution of water to persons served by the system.m Speaking firstly to operating costs and then to maintenance and repair. Contract further provides that if for any reason the Town of Wappinger shall exercise its rights to void and cancel this contract and it shall have a lien on the plant six or plants for the amount of money it may spend during period of its possession for improving the facilities. The sellers join in a recital that we shall judgement in the favor of the Town for whatever the amount of those improvements shall be. Both systems be taken over by the Town in their present condition. Performance of this agreement by the Town is subject to their ability to obtain permission to form m necessary special districts to provide water and sewer to the public. The necessary approvals from the controller of the State of New York. The xasa*ptxsf resetting a favorable opinion as to market ability of the obligations. We have a right to also avoid if plant is not Road or roads according to description and location. Those asking real property continuing descriptions which again are subject to approval of counsel. The agreement provides that in any lands that the sellers may own that may be a part of the Oakwood development that they shall be obliged i to pay all installation costs if they make application and no installation be made until they show proof of payment of labor and materials involved. There are to be reasonable inspection fees and fees for supervision of construction and connections of service. The sellers agree to join in in any petitions that they may be requested to for the formation of additional special districts as thought may be suitable f by the Town of Wappinger including formation of a sewage disposal district which might serve this ax area or other sewer districtsi. Agreement provides that the contract may not be aasiagwad signed by the sellers except in a banking institution chartered to do business in the State of New York. This agreement and terms of it are to be made part of agreement of sellers so that anybody that might sell land will be bound by the fee conditions of tka this agreement. For closing date on December 30 which is a change from the agreements you have. However, there is the express provision that the parties of the first part which will be made by party of the second part be for assurement of closing dates within reason. We are obliged until title is good and marketable and unless we are able to obtain necessary approvals from the State of New York and fiscal agencies and bonding counsel, put us in a position whereby declaratory judgement action. Willing to postpone payment until such time as when we may close. We can include as sum of over $1,000 we spent last winter. Fact that the present residents of Oakwood Knolls are going to be relieved of the burden of paying these disputed water bilis. This Town is going to be able to go in and s operate and maintain these facilities and charge fair and reasonable rates and give other users of the plants appropriate service. I will try lory to answer any questions. K.Clausen - is the attorney aware that the road In Oakwood Knolls does not belong to the Town? Mark Ritter must put those roads in condition before he gets his money. Quinn - in the middle of December 1965, there was litigation brought by Ritter interests against the Planning Board because of disapproval of Section II, whereby, before they ever get any approval of those things they must do those things you're talking about. There are bonding provisions to protect us in that situation. There was approved by the New York State Supremem Court around the 15th of December last year. K.Clausen - if it goes to a Dutchess Quinn - pointed out to me that at the present time there are no real access roads into this sewer and water thing. I think we're adequately covered along those lines. Diehl - going back to previous remarks made by Cornell and connecting with this. We have almost held a gun to the back of Rockingham Farms to give us our plant. Now we're going into Oakwood for a plant we have known to be questionably illegal. Now what does this t do to the other developers? Fulton - first was the conversation of the attorney general. This is the advice he was given. There is a definite distinction between Rockingham and Oakwood Knolls situations. Attkaughxkinctamtilmust Although I could not see it, solicitor general made it clear to me. One of the differences was that this town had entered into contract and formed district and he pointed out that this was one of the big differences. Hes could show -36- not only violations batxaktxpaxtimaxamacaaxaa by all parties concerned, cklr including the Town. There was a difference in that this Town is also responsible. The conclusion is the object is to solve this thing. Diehl - are we going deeper in this? Fulton - I notice record shows your continual abstaining on your part. Diehl - I wasn't a part of the beginning of this. Quinn - I made a recital of the fact that in April of 1965 the T then Town of Wappinger Town Board paaaad based on facts entered into contract to purchase these facilities for the sum of $120,000. What the Supervisors.. things got a little hot and heavy at this point. Even though these systems weren't in the best of shape this town went to extensive public hearings, extensive Nag* negotiations, whatever it new of defects, to illegalities, or anything else in those systems. I have made a recital pxababi}c properly in these papers and it is in a fashion that this present board has made a study of the madaxwxittagx underlying facts and so forth of the past performance in this area and has recognized what I would like to call the defensifying of certain areas. If there hadn't been a contract, things still would have been different. Fulton - with all a the go-ins I have had on this, legal advice from our counsel and other counsel I have looked over this contract. As a matter of fact, I think Quinn formed this contract on the bass of realistic situation we are a in and I think this situation is to solve this problem. In my opinion, after reading this contract, this contract is the best you could come up with. There is nobody that wanted to get under reasonable price and right conditions as much as I have. K.Clausen - I just don't 4 understand that x the supervisor is trying to -37 - tell us that the plant we're tr1cinq getting for nothing. Louis wanted to buy it. Quinn - we had at least 8 or 9 meetings with the Ritter interests between last February and up to a point where third or fourth week in July and I had some subsequent meetings with their counsel. Last March or April had figures on the table which looked fairly good. I was staxmayaxlcs always present. Mr. Reilly was present most of the time. Other Town Board members mostly present wewas Mr. Francese. Mr. Lafko was present. Mr. XX Brancato was their representing interests involved in the thing. I think there were many times the Board hoped they could get this property for a nominal fee. These people have been difficult to deal with. Sincerely I think that these are the best efforts. While this isn't a completely accurate statement. Buy these for a net sum of $57,000. It is true Ickt that 12,000 of the dollars involved here are only a figure. Oakwood knolls people having their water bills forgiven. Buying these plants for a net figure of $57,000 which is roughly a little more than $25,000 apiece and 1 know of no way we can get these any cheaper. Diehl - I feel that something is wrong. Clausen - I see Mr. Diehl's point. We do have a policy in the Town now. The whole plant is in question as to whether it is legal or not. Operation has been questioned right from the beginning. Puts the town in a position of the other builders who have turned over plants. I'm not sure this is the best. Our policy of sewage, I am hesitant. Fulton - your father's remarks, you have changed your mind. Clausen - there were considerations on Section II. That figure was thrown out when and if all other things were taken care of. It seems to be wrong. It seems to have shown poor policy in the H Town Boards of the past. It seems to be a very quick way to solve this thing but may not be the very best thing. Bulger - I learned today and I knew this and give most people know this. There was a man employed for maintenance of water system by the name of Robert Echelmeier. He said there are approximately $400 in wages owed him f. for his operation of the plant. I was wondering what this would do tk to this negotiation. Quinn - I don't think there is any way we can go out and comb the woods for them until such time as we are ready to take title here. There is provision made for deduction of the amount of any lands and so forth from the purchase price at the closing. I think it would be unprotective to hunt for any more at this point. I have heard of the existence of this claim. I have no knowledge of the validity of it. Fulton - I also got a letter today on Hatfield Welding. Quinn - these are things that will appear. They are rather standard in the situation. Diehl - before we jump into anything like this we have an investigation going on by the State and the answer they come up with might have great bearing on this. Fulton - an investigation and the possible finds that would be levied, I can't see if they are going to benefit the Town of Wappinger or the taxpayers. I just doesn't enter into the economics of itktx the thing. Diehl - a effect it is going to have on the Town itself and the businessmen in the Town. Seems to be so many problems. Francese - the things that I remember for many, mita many meetings are the people from Oakwood Knolls. The people there would be but burdened with the cost of this district. -39- Francese - exegi x originally this came to the Town as a petition of the people from Oakwood Knolls. They entered into many meeting with us. We had their complete feelings. They were under the impression that even if they had to go at that $120,000 price they would be very happy for the Town to take it over. I'm not disputing you. Diehl - just worried what is going to happen. Francese - this town at present has a policy, it stated that we are seeking municipal sewage and we have stated what these different developers and districts have donated to the town. Occured in the township long before we made any arrangements. Fulton - there are such things before the fact and after the fact. There is a point mks here where you can dictate the policy of something that is tm going to occur, but to make that policy retroactive... Francese - there are several other things that this Town Board has taken into considerations. Clausen,Bulger, and myself, we all requested that negotiations um go on with these people so that we may agree on a price for the purchase of either the sewer plant or both plants. We also m have a motion on record, I think with Mr. Clausen for the attorney of the Town to come up with the results of the negotiations with the owner. If it is not in the record then I am wxmgn wrong. These negotiations have been going on for quite some time. I would like to say this, should this contract not be all right and =MIN Louis has showed at some questions here, would you have any idea of what you would like to propose? Diehl - I foresee beg problems. I don't think I am in a position to sit here tonight and say yes. Quinn - I m am not critical. I don't want anybody to draw any frets k that I am on the actions of the previous Town Board. I don't know how many of you recently had occasion to look at that old contract. The bond issue was $248,000. This one is for $57,000. Just one other thing. Even though this policy of new developments coming in and constructing a their own plants there are systems in Mos this Town that the Board is swum seriously going to have to consider purchasdng a and one to under sexual serious milt negotiations at this moment is the L & A system and we're not going to to pick that up for anything else then a fair and reasonable price. Let me say this, this rescinds the old contract. I think you can consult any others counsel there is. It is an expensive proposition. Clausen - is there a letter to the Town from Mr. Aldrich stating that the' contract was illegal? Fulton - Ritter had=not complied with contract. Quinn - Aldrich did not attend hearings in December, 1965. At those hearings, however, there was testimony introduced. Acting as counsel. Testimonies introduced good deal of mortgage land. Titles to the property had been turned t over to special counsel and Mt= held in excaro. I don't think Aldrich thought and said title was illegal or property was unmarketable. Condition of performance. Fulton - point of the letter was that Ritter had not complied with the agreements. It was not a statement that said the plant was unmarketable. Quinn - he indicated that title had been examined at that examination of title showed the existence of the mortgage. SUSPEND RULES Worona - We have for a year attempted to help the Town resolve matters in Oakwood. Interested in Mr. Quinn's last observation. I would like to ask Mr. Quinn whether, in his opinion, he feels it isaa legal plant as authorised IA by law. Quinn - no to the various questions. Worona - is it under jurisdiction now of public service commission which `a.► I understand is $120 per ilmw year for house customer. In addition to $15,000 lien on road, not going to pre-empt the courts, the State of New York is involuted in litigation day in and day out. That is our legal opinion but I'm here to tell the plan is illegal. That has been the continuous violation from its intent right down to today. You could have condemned this plant without paying a dime and take it over. Could not compel this town to pay a dime where parties were at equal thought, the law would supply relief to anyone seeking it. It is not a fact at all. In addition, the law is quite clear and to the contrary. "...a contract, however, made in violation of the penal statute, although not expressly declared to be prohibitive or void or to aid another in violating the law " What I am interested in is this, we brought action against the Town hexa a year ago. In it we alleged... Attorney general has absolutely no say in it. I wish to assure t you that Quinn had received no such directive from my office. No proposed contract was requireda up there. In our law suit, we said this is it particularly. This a is among all other violations that exist there. The Town proceeded to adopt resolution for the purchase of the plant for $125,000 and $248,000 for the bond. Said action is therefore improper and illegal. Without having advised said residents, Town has entered into illegal and improper contract for the purchase. Regardless of what market dime up there the legality of that plant was raised. Aldrich brought motion before justice Fanelli and Mr. Fanelli denied it. Mr. Aldrich representing this Town of Wappinger filing a notice of appeal still pending. I am now going to read from law, Section 55-19, stay without a court order.x I had to proceed to get an order staying can get an order from anyone. Affidavit for intention of appeal. Where the appellant or the amoving party is the State or any political subdivision of the state or any officer of or agency of the state... This particular action in which the legality of that particular plant was raised. A stay. For a period of one complete solid year to hold off any activity. We don't move to go on with lawsuit on the strength of the statements made to us. The L & A plants was the first to be complied in that section. An illegal operation by Schoonmaker the town acquired the entire plant. He cannot pre-empt the court in the determination of whether that plant is illegal. A plant that has been operating for a couple months. You were asking us to set back and wait. You're asking us to watch in the set of a lawsuit. To have our substantial interests jeopardized. When that plant is illegal. You have to right to pay a dime when you can condemn it and take it over for the Town. I don't know how axst consistent you can be in those policies. Plants worth $100,000. You will pay $75,000 for this when you will have to put more tham that in to get it into operation. There isn't a thing right with it. We sit here blandly and discuss a proposed contract. Not any other districts surround it and that was the contract Mr. Clausen moved be submitted. As soon as possible the Town Board would act on a preliminary contract to be presented. That was the exact language, that the preliminary contract be acted upon by the Town Board. There was no time for that, but there was sufficient time for this one. X If you're considering this, I think you should stop considering entering into this. There may be pressure from the attorney general's office and the Board of Health. If you start it, then we start additional litigation. Not a threat, not blackmail. L & A is not first resolved before Oakwood Knolls* is. I ask you in your considerations that this Is matter not only be tabled, but that it be vetoed because it has no place in law or conscience. Cannot be expected to sit back when you -43 - propose illegal plants. If you have any questions I would like to answer them. Second action pending before the Planning Board. The action before the Planning Board does not bind this Town Board. We have a similar but identical problem involving Brookhollow Builders, Angelo Williams. Jud Williams said it would affect Town Board. Commencement of this proceeding and action against the Town Board. Nothing with respect to first or second or third action. If you want to do it, it is perfectly all right, that's why they have courts. RESUME RULES Recess at 11:10, Reconvened at 11:17. Quinn - I would like a motion authorizing you as chief officer of this Town to execute this contract on behalf of the Town. Bulger I would like a little time. Quinn - time is of extreme essence in this matter. This contract going into effect depends completely. If any of you were swayed or had questions in your mind about Mr. Worona's statement, I would tell you that it is not applicable to this situation. There are practical authorizations that make it impossible. Worona - let me hear what they are. Francese - he is our advisor and we can take his advice or not take it. Quinn - Town is fully protected by the contingencies set forth in this statement. We violate no court orders, we violate no statutes. Action by L & A questioning legality of this district is academic, it can be and in a matter of days thrown out.afxmainstx The provisions of the Town Lww permit such action. Worona - if it is a result of the delay you ask me to exercise, I'm serving notice right here. -44 - Quinn - this is a matter of Town Law. I will be glad. This is a matter of article C of the Town Law andxth$ of the State of New York. I don not have a copy.x It is a statutory provision that has been enacted that permits us, this Town Board, at its pleasure to render this action academic. Francese - there have been several times when Mr. Louis Eck has made statements at a Board meeting which I feel are uncalled for. It happened at the last meeting when he made derrogatory statism remarks. I think Mr. Eck, and I believe the Board has the power, should be removed from the meeting for statements made like this. Quinn - I sincerely feel that the agreement is in every way of advantage to the Town. I think the Town is under some duty to come to the assistance of the people and provide them with good service. I know there is the fsstn feeling and under current that our firms is the architect of a plan and I gave him all assurance in a recent telephone conversation that this is not considered to be to the dt detrement of the L & A filtration Corp. The owners of the Spook Hill Development. We've either got to provide them with municipal sex service or transportation corporation. I sat with their attorney this week after I came nix out of court room and he asked has got every basis to proceed. I sat and I told every one of you Board members except Mr. Diehl a couple of weeks ago that action should be taken on this matter at the earliest possible date. We're on the right road. You want municipal sewage and you want municipal water. This is just a small start. We have got to procede t on this one and as soon as the facts can be made to obtain we have to got to proceed to get into a contract in my opinion. Worona - I think you know from experience you can't plan t for things to fall into place. Quinn - pressures have been on since last January for municipal sewage. We've been under the gun since last January. Only thing that has saved the Board is there has been a lull. If construction had gone on at the rate it had last fall.... The county of BERM Dutchess has been running this sewer plant on a stand-by basis doing only the bare minimum to keep it going. That sewer plant is going to break down without proper repair and maintenance.We're at a critical point with this contract. Negotiations have been delicate. This thing is balanced on the blade of the knife. There are many factors that exist with respect to possible litigants, creditors, and so forth that make time completely of the essence. I've tried to be of service to the Town Board. I've never dealt with a matter that is so much to the future well-being of the Town. I don't know what more I can say than that. It is in your hands, gawtat gentlemen. SUSPEND RULES Lafko - you heard two lawyers tonight, both at direct odds with one another. Let's say we'll leave it there. I believe the problem no one has taken into consideration - you have an investigation going on of the iN same thing you're purchasing. This axtk automatically ends the investigation 'c);?/11This contract has not been a part of any conference procedure nor a matter of any construction nor contents of the contract disclosed to anyone. Only ones are personnel of our office, Town Board, sellers, and personnel of their oounsel. Lafko - next situation you have facing you there is no recommendation made for the inspection of this system. Quinn - system is bought as is. The condition of the plant is as it is now. We all know that there is problems. Lafko - there's no title policy gonna be issued if it's legally possible. -46 - Not one being asked for if it is legally possible. Quinn - that certainly not only not ruled out title insurance, will be used in the event that a purchase flows from this contract. Lafko - system has to be oorreoted and limitated at the best ability of the Town. I would like to ask you this question, why, in your researoh of this information, which you were able to take a full year to do, why have you not recommended to the Board the fact of condemnation and lett the Board set the price later. Quinn - likely end up paying more than base price in the old contract if we went to d condemnation. Lafko - your opinion. Not backed up by engineers. Quinn - didn't get very deeply into that feasibility study. I went into some text produced by the Town Board of the Town of Wappinger, in 1965. I'm aware of litigation in condemnation. Pair amount of experience in it generally on the municipal side. As far as feasibility studies, the testimony that was eduoed last year, I think they all have a bearing on it. I think that my opinion is not a chance guess. I didn't arrive at it overnight. With your experience in owning, constructing, and operating sewer plants, I think if we were able to brush aside interests, I think you would be one of the first guys to tell me that this is a good contract and to grab it. Lafko - talking with sincerity, I think there is one point ymixmtaxmfaxtag here everyone's missing. You're talking about feasibility and X you're only talking about initial capital of purchase. You're ap3 Jg area of future development, existing development. You have a 20 -year life on that metal fabricated plant with a 20 -year bond issue. Suppose knows size of bond issue. They will have to bring plant right up to specs. No one knows here what at it will cost for final purchase, right? Quinn - not an engineer, don't know much about sewer plant except financing them. The life of this sewer plant will be relatively aastt short. When we get in and we acquire it, as I hope we are going to, the L & A facilities that this plant will be nothing more than a pumping station to be used with L & A facilities. Could come into good use for the Town of Wappinger. The acquisition of this plant is just a step in the formation of a big muniotpal sewer district that will be much bigger than Rockingham and will include L & A. I think I've learned from you and I think you agree with me/ Lafko - one thing that will lay first - you're going to form a district and you're worried about mandamous from Spook Hill and the minute you have to move for that section I have to move my progression on to litigation. You're shrinking down the financial ability of forming the large district. How do you intend, when you take that plant out of theit from them people, how does that district get repaid when that plant is moved or falls apart? Quinn - very enthusiastic about this. The very terms and language of this agreement pre -suppose the formation,to my mind Oakwood Knolls sewer district has a very very short life expectancy. Lafko - why can't $ we just lay it right on the table? Why can't you lay down framework if tkz this is your first keystone? Let's not be naive. We're not talking about a situation here. After the development was half built, we had to complete that plant before we could do anything. I think the situation 1s a quick answer but if you can make it in such a way where you can Ix assure the different developers in this room that there is going to be. a large district so that developing their land you don't have to be near this ditch that when it isn't dry it's full of algae - how do you intend, if you're gonna form up the one district, this is sound way to protect the people in Wildwood, duiet Acres, Wildwood 2, if this money situation loosens up, as you pointed out, there's going to be plenty of interest here to get moving. You've got a school that you're missing the boat on. Point I wanna bring out that $80,000 would pay for a line to run from Spook Hill, the school, Town plant could be taken from Oakwood and placed out where boundary development is. You've incorporated in this - just Section II. %Ire Quinn - I have because I have made these sellers consent in advance to the disillusion of any district and the formation of any district or districts. I have made them consent in advance, which they have done. Lafko - also demanded that they act in the formation of any new districts. What it is saying to me is you're setting the area up, Spook Hill is putting pressure on youx, whereby Lisofsky is also putting on pressure. Another point, he appeared in this Town Hall and told the Planning Board fraudulentlym, words of confirmations of contracts that permitted him to be obtain a preliminary approval. Quinn - first time I met the man was October 3 when I argued a motion for this Town Board. Lafko - Planning Board was told that there was confirmations of service guarranteed from L & A and Atlas, and we have letters of correspondence where he keeps asking. He made false statements to the Planning Board. Actually, as subdivision, he's back to preliminary stage. Quinn - my experience is .you don't get to chose partners any more. You have to kinda overlook some of those and initial way of doing business. You talk about the threat of those two lawsuits. I have tried a couple lawsuits and I hope I can do a couple more. I have never walked into one where I was sure I was going to win. This thing, as far as the economy of it, is subject to the approval of the controllers office. Lafko - some people who don't know what the audit and control department is. Quinn - we all have learned by our experience. Lafko - what will the rate be? Quinn - have no idea of what the rate will be. Fulton - rate, are you talking about big district? Quinn - that was true in Rockingham last winter, but we got it. I did a lot of suffering out their at the table during the hearing. Lafko - there is one other thing in that contract, until you reconcile, more than just hose and soap. If spook hill moves at all, that plant will be out of in three years.What's bothering me is why they're is all running into buying when they don't know what the rate is. Why don't you and I be real factual on this situation? Quinn - I'll try to answer any questions you have. Lafko - this thing in Ritters has been a thorn in the side of the Town. The rest of us are still behind. I've got my grandchildren right over there in Quiet Acres. It's gonna be with this Town Board as it always has been. I think what's happened here it is strictly being rushed into `rrr for some reason within the last two weeks mainly to hault an investigation. It's long over due. That's the responsibility these gentlemen have on their shoulders. They've seen this situation develop. He operated the same way acress the river before he came here. How is he going to be with the direction that don't encompass the proper area to qualify for the future. Quinn - first of all contract, about this thing taking two weeks to come about - this thing has sort of like behind being bard born. It has taken 9 months. We have avenues for federal aid thatm might surprise you. There will be things done with this plant which are very likely a to qualify for financial aid from one of the higher agencies. Lafko - Mr. Fulton should be aware that you am are within 3500 ft. of a 12 -inch trunk line. Cost of $68,000. Fee would be the cost in repairing it. Quinn - you're assuming some things and now you're getting w away from the sincere attitude you had before. When I heard those mothers talking about -50 - raw sewage running on the ground, I think it's about time they got something. Lafko - that plant, the bond issue for those two will be over $100,000. Quinn - they've checked. I don't think it is a proper thing for you to try to get into an area. It is your business, but you also have got some and as a knowledgable person, you know that this is part of a feasible plan to work into a big district. Lafko - for the lack of our lawsuit, this Town would now be in a bond issue of $248,000. Quinn - had this Town Board taken steps to go for that $248,000 bond issue, they would have certainly done so over our advice and this may sound like a x very handy gesture, I never would have stayed here as counsel to this Town. Lafko - your words were nothing. There was a lawyer appointed to that distkict. A lot of people here don't know this, the bonds were already voted on. This Town Board had voted for this. You and Mr. Reilly would have no nax®u more to say about it other than anyone who lived outside the district. Quinn - before January 1, I knew some of the facts, and a lot more, and the Supervisor can bear me out. He and I talked before he even took office. We had conversations. I didn't think it was a feasible thing. Had this Town Board gone ahead to market that paper in any form, I would have found it necessary to withdraw our services to this Town. Worona - started x October 6, 1965. Quinn - 1 was aware of it when it came in the office. Lafko - you mentioned the second section H - what this constitutes to me is that the Town Board having granted this area to us to serve and we built and sized the pm pipes to serve it is now going to go into the same position that Mr. Aldrich was hired for when he had the people vote for that district. You're going to be in direct competition. Without any further elaboration on what the cost will be or what assurance are you giving us that it will enable us and he can be our legal counsel to assure us we don't have to institute further action. What assurance can you attach here tonight that can erase this from protecting our own invested interest? Quinn - I can tell you this, I don't think that you can bring any suit k that has any great merit. I don't buy the franchise idea but I haven't feltmt) that it was wise to litigate the reasons, I think are sound. I know now that there will be no need to litigate it in the future. Lafko - what gives you such direct unmatched statement? Quinn - we have s certain statutes we didn't have before. I say that I have good assurance from what I know of the present statutory system that we won't be litigating this matter. Lafko - I heard you just last week make certain statements that all that has ate." to be done is the mechanics. I g have good reasons for not girt* giving you an answer because I don't think they should come out on the floor tonight. I think it would hurt the interests of the Town and I think it would hurt the interests of L & A. Quinn - I mean it just as sincerely. Lafko - I see you buying out individuals assets because losses to other people have caused this Town Board to pass things they wouldn't have to get into. Francese to Lakfo- xxymm if you don't want to answer this question, you don't have to. If you owned the present facilities at Oakwood Knolls and if this Town condemned your operation of that plant and formed a district, what -52- would you expect the courts to award you for the physical facilities? Lafko - there is so many things in that area that haven't been brought out on the table, you wouldn't get a dime. He built improperly. Titles have been issued improperly. EXOCRINE Francese - what do you expect you would get from the courts? Lafko - I don't think the man would get anything and xxamanamationa he'd be lucky if he didn't do a little time. Brannen - if the Town contracts and there is an action against them.... Quinn - statutory provisions now that make it academic. Certain statutes that rule out this sort of situation. I don't think you're familiar with it. Worona - we did come down here for an 8 o'clock meeting. The next thing is this, as I indicated hours ago, so far we have )z heard from Mr. Quinn and he has given us assurances that the L & A plant was to be... We haven't heard the Town come through with anything. I'm telling you now, I have enought work without getting into litigation. Can't the Board tell us definitely? We feel that you've done everything except get into terms of the contract. Clausen - RESUME RULES Fulton - this thing is right down to the wire, I think there is a decision that has to be made. This way or condemnation. What I can understand about this is this - you can see yourself there is problems here. MENEM XX Assumptions that certain things are gonna be done. I think this is the best way to go. Quinn - I don't know how to beg you. Fulton - are you convinced we're going to take L & A? If you are, this thing fits right in. Clausen - I think I agree with L & A for the primary trouble spot. I say L&A. --5 3- Francese - it has been the intent of this Board to buy Oakwood Knolls and when the contract is brought up there are questions. Clausen - why all of a sudden the ma'am rush on Oakwood Knolls? Lafko - I'll buy the Oakwood sewer plant, buy it all in one district. Quinn - I had that offer from somebody else. Lafko - don't have to go into condemnation. Quinn - this is the same plan you were talking about condemnation a minute ago. Lafko - I can't see where the Town buys itself out of litigation. Motion made by Francese, seconded by Bulger, to adjourn meeting. 12:25 pxmx