1989-09-25
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rlECEIVElJ
OCT _1 1989
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ELAINE H. SNOWDEN
Town Clerk
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PLANNING BOARD : TOWN OF WAPPINGER
COUNTY OF DUTCHESS : STATE OF NEW YORK
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PUBLIC HEARING TO RECEIVE COMMENTS ON
THE BROOKVALE SUBDIVISION DRAFT
ENVIRONMENTAL STATEMENT THAT WAS
RECEIVED AS TO COMPLETENESS ON ~ 0 1 89
AUGUST 14, 1989, ON PROPEORTY LOCATED "71'\~,';"
ON SPOOK HILL ROAD AND BEING PARCEL ,Vu..t...i;....,...~.....,
#19-6257-01-260870, IN THE TOWN OF
WAPPINGER
--------------------------------------X
September 25, 1989
Town Hall
20 Middlebush Road
Wappingers Falls, New York
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APPEARANCES:
PLANNING BOARD
CHAIRMAN EDWARD HAWKSLEY
WILLIAM PARSONS
CHRIS SIMMONETTY
JOHN PERILLO
DONALD KELLER
JAMES MILLS
NOT PRESENT:
FRANK PATTERSON
ALSO PRESENT:
HERBERT LEVENSON, Zoning Adminstrator
and Clerk to the Planning Board
JAY PAGGI, P.E.
Engineer to the Town
RAY ARNOLD, A.I.C.P.
Town Planner
Robin E. DiMichele
Senior Court Reporter
State of New York
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision- 2
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: The meeting will come
back to order.
The next item on the agenda is the public
hearing to receive comments on the Draft
Environmental Impact Statement on the Brookvale
sub-division. I would move to open the public
hearing.
MR. PARSONS: So Moved.
MR. MILLS: Second.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Moved and seconded. All
in favor?
MR. SIMONETTY: Aye.
MR. KELLER: Aye.
MR. PERILLO: Aye.
MR. PARSONS: Aye.
MR. MILLS: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Opposed?
{No Response)
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: For the record, please
show that Mr. Patterson is absent. Would the Clerk
please verify that this public hearing was properly
advertised.
MR. LEVENSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, it was
properly advertised in the Southern Dutchess News.
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision- 3
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Thank you. Again, the
purpose of this public hearing is to give the
public an opportunity to make comments on the Draft
Environmental Impact Statement for the
sub-division, with respect primarily to its
completeness and adequacy.
Would the Clerk please verify that the Draft
E.I.S. was properly distributed to the interested
agencies.
MR. LEVINSON: Yes, it was, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Thank you. As some
background information, the application for this
preliminary site plan, rather sub-division was
received in 1985, and the preliminary approval was
granted on the approval, then the E.I.S. -- the
Planning Board determined that it was a type 1
action and it circulated lead agency designation in
September of 1988. The Draft Environmental Impact
Statement was received by the Planning Board on
July 24, 1989, and it was accepted for circulation
in August of 1989.
At this time I'd like to ask the applicant to
give a brief presentation regarding the
application.
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision- 5
years in four stages which is roughly 24 units per
year, which the developer, the applicant feels that
is a reasonable amount to be able to build. The
primary access is provided off Spook Hill Road in
the center of the frontage, and the secondary
access through the internal loop system connects
with the Fieldstone sub-division which right now is
a cul-de-sac that ends up at the high point in
Fieldstone.
This development is contingent on connection
to municipal sewers and municipal water supply.
As far as environmental impacts go, there are
no out of the ordinary construction impacts that we
discovered or anticipate through our analysis of
this project. The extent of temporary disturbance
would be minimized by the stage construction, so
only one stage at a time would be disturbed and
only one stage would be developed, completely
developed before another stage progresses.
Permanent impacts are primarily traffic and
drainage, and those were voiced by the Board in the
past, and also by residents in the area. We have
studied both those in depth. The draft E.I.S.
contains detailed studies of both traffic and
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision- 6
drainage.
To briefly summarize the traffic, a number of
intersections were studied in the area. Spook Hill
Road, both ends of Spook Hill Road, Ervin Road at
Meyers Corners Road and Central Avenue and Kent
Road at Meyers Corners Road, Central Avenue and All
Angels Road. In general the levels of service were
found to be adequate at the present time. The
extended traffic over the four year construction
period is expected to degrade slightly based on
normal growth in the area, and little or no impact
in terms of levels of service could result from
this project in particular. The primary points of
traffic impacts are at both ends of Spook Hill
Road. Those were found to slight --cause for
slight increase in traffic delay at those
intersectioris.
As far as drainage goes, the net decrease in
the peak run-off is expected from the site. Jack
Railing, the Engineer will expound on that a little
more. The proposal is for a detention pond and an
overflow pond which functions similar to a
detention pond, so on-site drainage can be
controlled during peak storms, so that off-site
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to --
MR. RAILING: Fred, I think you've adequately
addressed for the time being the drainage aspects.
What we've done is to propose a zero increase in
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision- 8
discharge and we've generated that in the report
which now the Town Engineer and the people can
review.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Thank you. Do either Jay
or Mr. Arnold wish to talk?
MR. ARNOLD: I have nothing right now.
MR. PAGGI: I have a few comments. Just one
general comment. The topography on the site plan
that I reviewed is five foot contours, said it was
U.S.G.S. datum but it didn't quote the source of
the topography, whether it was a trace of U.S.G.S.
or actual field topography. I would think an
accurate field topography to two foot contours
would be necessary to naturally definitely develop
the final site plan, the final sub~division plot,
but also in order to make some determinations that
were made in the E.l.S. I would think an accurate
based map would beappropriate~ I'm not
questioning exactness, I'd just like the source
stated on the plan.
With respect to sewerage and water on page
3-6 they state the sewerage is at capacity now and
only will be able to connect when the Town connects
with Tri-Municipal Sewer districts which should be
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision-
another adjective or adverb placed, if and when.
It states that the existing Hilltop wells are
at or near capacity, that again is a true
statement, and again, the execution of the
sub-division can only take place if and when the
Town develops their overall Town wide water. I
think mitigating measures have to be offered for
those two cases, those two cases, and they really
weren't offered in the D.E.I.S. That will be in my
substantive comments that will be coming before the
close of the comment period.
With respect to storm water, we agree in
concept with the plan that Jack's office has
devised. We have some site specific comments.
Number one, the stream that traverses Spook Hill
Road is deteriorated quite a bit from Meyers --
actually from the end of Black Falls (phonetic) up
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to Spook Hill Road, and that needs to be addressed.
It can't handle the existing flows of areas now.
The second comment is on the You can see
the little white inlet there, the Devine property,
now or formally Devine. The only white inside the
map.
there.
There's an existing driveway crossing right
It's a 24 inch concrete pipe that floods
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale 5ubdivision- 10
pretty bad right now, even during storms of low
intensity, and I think that has to be addressed.
The overflow pond is going to have to be shown that
it can actually work. Part of the reason-- the
thing is that the drainage system doesn't function
properly here, and this is brought out in the
report, is that some of the culverts there can't
work because the stream can't develop enough head
to make the entire culvert operable. I think it's
going to have to be demonstrated that this overflow
pond is going to be able to work hydraulically,
that the water is going to actually overflow into
the pond before it can, the excess flow rate can
overflow in to the pond and get back into the
stream. I have some questions whether or not it
can actually work. 50 I would think we need some
more mitigating measures with respect to drainage
other than simply saying we're going to build a
detention pond on the north end of the site and
overflow pond on the west end of the site. I think
some statements as to the existing stream and that
one critical driveway crossing would have to be
offered.
That was basically it. The sewer, water, and
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision- 11
the source of the topography.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Thank you very much, Mr.
Paggi. Hr. Arnold.
MR. ARNOLD: No.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: How about Board members?
MR. PARSONS: I do.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Mr. Parsons.
MR. PARSONS: Looking at that I have to
really say that that is a pretty, whatever you want
to call it up there, although, basically, in my
mind what it's done is taken what I think is an old
beat up Chevy and tried to make it look like a
Cadillac. Look at this if you really want to see
how the property is going to develop. (Indicating)
You make it look like it's all green, just a little
house here and there.
MR. RAILING: Bill,
MR. PARSONS: Jack, I'm talking. 94 houses
going on 89 acres, so that's not what you call
leaving a lot of green space.
MR. SIMONETTY: There's a lot of road in
there too.
MR. PARSONS: Yep. So I just wanted you to
remember that. On page 1-2 it's no big thing, but
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision-
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as far as impacts, increased revenue from municipal
governments and schools from property tax. Well,
that's a fallacy and you all know it. There's no
time in the history of the country where more
development reduces your taxes. It may give more
income but at the same time it costs more and
everybody pays more. I don't know.
MR. SIMONETTY: I
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Please let Mr. Parsons
have the floor.
MR. PARSONS: I have a problem with the way
it's laid out to start with, and I know, I say I
know, I think I know, they were given preliminary
approval, and today I have a big problem with it,
considering what that is compared to, possible
layout of something like this, but if they have it
they have it. It's pretty difficult not to do it,
but originally when we talked about a conservation
sub-division, and the reason I'm bringing this up
is that you may have to reduce the number of units
there when I point out some of the other things.
The conservation subdivision used 25.7 acres still
with 94 units but there was a much better layout as
far as preserving some green space.
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision- 15
Wappingers where all the major things are, I.B.M.
and plants and everything else. It doesn't make
sense. Where could they possibly have come up with
that? While we're on the study too, and this is
not the first time we asked for this, we should
have a certified copy of the traffic study stating
when these studies were done, the particular days
and the particular hours, especially in this area,
because you're dealing with the school traffic
which can add anywhere from a thousand to
two-thousand trips per day in that area. I don't
know whether you did it in December and January.
There's numerous vacations periods in there, and it
could have been done in either one.
Let's jump back to page C-41, figure two.
Tell me when you're ready.
MR. RAILING: Okay.
MR. PARSONS: All right. Let's take the
intersection of Spook Hill and Meyers Corners, but
let's back up first to Ervin Drive. You got 706
cars heading towards Route 9. We drop down to the
next intersection and all of a sudden we have 506
cars. Where did the other 200 go?
MR. RAILING: I can't answer that question
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision- 17
that's C-48, figure number nine, page C-48.
MR. PARSONS: You got 826 cars there and 67
turn in to Spook Hill and leaves 779 which comes
out right. One time they're considering the school
traffic and other times they're not. One time the
school is closed, if that's what it is. What I'm
saying is they're not correct. The point I'm
trying to make is that as far as the traffic study,
and that's a major concern of mine, we've already
touched on water, sewerage, drainage, the traffic
study, I know you're all familiar with Spook Hill
Road and the turns in it, and it's in an F level
right now as far as safety factor is concerned.
You're dealing with the intersection of Spook Hill
and Old Hopewell, Spook Hill and Meyers Corners.
You're dealing with the severe curves in the road
itself and there's no way in the world that that
road can carry the additional traffic for the 94
more homes which you're talking a minimum of 200
vehicles every morning going out of there and 200
more coming back at night, and I know they aren't
going to all come in the same hour, but the point
is, that environmentally, unless there's major
major work going to be done on Spook Hill at that
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision-
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intersection this thing doesn't fly. You can say
all you want that 200 cars isn't going to make a
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difference. The problem is it does make a
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difference because what it boils down to is these
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things in a development such as this, it's just
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like the straw that broke the camel's back.
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There's a limit to what you can d6. Right now you
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can come out on Spook Hill Road, without this
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development, without any additional traffic, and
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you can't make a left turn and go towards
Wappingers unless you sit there for some time.
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Going to Hopewell Road and trying to make a left
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it's the same situation. It really needs left turn
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lanes in those roads. It needs, the major corner
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there just beyond this property, needs to be some
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major work done there too. It's been talked about
and talked about but nothing happens, and if the
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developer don't do it whose going to do it? I'll
tell you whose going to do it? The Town. Whose
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going to pay it for it? Everybody, and that's not
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fair. You can't have impacts fees, I know they're
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against the law, but at the same time you have to
remember is that if something doesn't fit into the
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area and turns around and makes life more
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision- 19
uncomfortable for everybody that lives here, that's
an impact. It's a safety impact and so on, so
that's my comments on that. I think there's too
many houses going in there, considerably too many
unless there's some major road improvements going
to be done as part of the project.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Thank you, Mr. Parsons.
Anyone else on the Board? John?
MR. KELLER: No. He took the wind out of my
sails.
MR. MILLS: He said it all.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Chris?
MR. SIMONETTY: No, it's covered.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: John?
MR. PERILLO: Just to add to what Bill said,
the fact you do have that traffic light right there
will have an impact during school hours. I
normally leave very early in the day. Today I left
late. I couldn't believe what school buses do. I
think that should be added. It's total eliminated
from here.
MR. PARSONS: I'm glad you brought it up.
They should treat the Ketchum thing and do a
traffic study. I can show you any morning where
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision- 20
the traffic is backed up at least a mile in either
direction waiting to get in. Another thing, they
seem to think once they get on Meyers Corners and
go that a way they disappear in to never never
land. You go down Route 9, another disastrous
intersection, you can sit there five or ten minutes
to get out and go out south. These are all
problems. The traffic study has to take the
traffic somewhere they can move, and your traffic
study doesn't do that. It doesn't take in to the
fact if you think all those cars are going to go
east and they get to All Angels and Meyers Corners,
another bad intersection, and hang a left there.
Your traffic study here uses comments from the one
I.B.M. did or Pizzigalli for the additional I.B.M.
building. They were laxed in doing that. They
made believe the traffic was going to disappear on
a cloud once it got away from the site. That's why
you have to follow it further. Hackensack, Old
Angels and Route 376 where they come together,
another disaster.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Okay. Thank you Jack and
Bill. Mr. Mills?
MR. MILLS: Nothing.
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residential plot something should be mentioned of
it so that it can be dealt with that way, because
otherwise you have one individual has it right in
their front yard.
MR. LEVENSON: And the other thing you should
know is there's a very stringent law that's
administered by the Secretary of State with regard
to old cemeteries. They become the responsibility
of the municipality and there should be some
designation made on that map, and there should be a
reference to the law that the Secretary of State of
the State of New York has to deal with that.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Do you have some
additional comments, Herb?
MR. LEVENSON: I have nothing other than what
Mr. Parsons said. When I got to the traffic study
I practically gave up because I was losing cars. I
couldn't find out where they were going.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: At this point I'd like to
open to the floor.
MR. KELLER: I'd like to ask Jack a question.
Jack, on those ponds, one's a detention pond, one
is a retention pond. One holds water and one will
not hold water, is that correct?
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MR. RAILING: The detention pond is your
standard dry area that is normally dry and during a
heavier rain will swell and hold the water and
release it slowly. The overflow pond actually has
the stream adjacent to it or in combination with it
which does remain
MR. KELLER: Runs right through it.
MR. RAILING: Pretty much, and then as that
swells it will go in to the area of the overflow.
MR. KELLER: This is the same parcel of land
that when you came in originally years ago, I
remember a lot of people came in with pictures of
flooding in the backyard. Your drainage plan
mitigates.that?
MR. RAILING: We believe so.
MR. PARSONS: The original drainage ended up
in Lake Oniad and people came in with those
complaints.
MR. KELLER: Jay is in agreement with your
drainage plan?
MR. PAGGI: We looked at it from a point of
view as an environmental impact statement, not from
a design of the sub-division. We didn't look at
the size of the holding ponds, but we did look at
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the methodology he used. The pictures that you're
talking about before were the back of Central
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Avenue.
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MR. MILLS: They were over here. (Indicating)
MR. PAGGI: There's an existing 15 inch pipe
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that diagonally goes through somebody's backyard
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over there, and what they've done is they've shown
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in their impact, in the drainage study that right
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now that 15 inch, and correct me if I'm wrong, the
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15 inch now is undersized by about close to three
hundred percent, I think, and what they're doing is
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by building the proper size retention pond they're
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not only decreasing it to pre-development flows,
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they're decreasing it to the less than existing
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capacity of the existing 15 inch, so that should
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really help that area.
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MR. MILLS: That's going to mitigate that
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problem all the way down to Camp Road where that
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drain comes all the way across Central Avenue?
MR. PAGGI: Using that 15 inch as a design
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section, yes. It's going to make it, theoretically
make it better than it is. It floods now and it
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will make it better than it is today. The other
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side I think they have a little more work to do.
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They've addressed the problem, but again, I think
they have to offer more mitigating measures.
MR. MILLS: Straightening out the road that
we're talking about, is that going to effect that?
MR. PAGGI: What, the stream?
MR. MILLS: In that stream along there.
MR. PAGGI: Not really. The stream is to the
east.
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CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: I'm not sure what Central
Hudson will do with that. I assume they might move
the pole. They may not do anything. I don't know.
I don't know what their policy is about having
poles in areas like that.
MR. KELLER: If it's an easement--
MR. PAGGI: It shouldn't be because that will
have to become part of the Town drainage system.
It will require an easement. I'm sure Central
Hudson won't look on that too happily. The
developers engineer should pursue that with Central
Hudson as part of the final environmental impact
statement. I don't think they're allowed drainage
easements
MR. TALLMAN: Because that right-of-way when
you get to the corner where Nancy Lane comes out,
that goes through another piece of property and
there's a right-of-way through that piece of
property.
The other comment I have is on the cemetery
that's up there. I heard comments prior to the
meeting that there was one headstone that was still
up there. Twenty-five years ago there was quite a
few more than one headstone and I'm just concerned
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision- 28
about this size of that piece of property that
supposedly will be deeded over to the Town. I
think you will find out there's a lot more graves
in there than one headstone.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Okay. Thank you. Anyone
else?
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MR. LOUGHREN: Tom Loughren; 54 Spook Hill
Road. My main concern again is the traffic. If it
did go through which I feel it probably will, Ervin
Road should be opened up to help alleviate the
traffic from Spook Hill Road because it's just a
mess on Sunday morning or at night, it's just a
mess.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Well, to answer your
concern, sir, that is one of the options that the
Planning Board has under consideration, is opening
that connection. From a planning point of view,
strictly I think it makes sense.
MR. MILLS: By the way, that piece of
property from the cul-de-sac to the property line
will be deeded to the Town. If it stays a
cul-de-sac it will be deeded to the Town for the
future opening to Ervin Drive.
MR. LOUGHREN: The traffic impact once that
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goes in, it's murder there now. It's just
ludicrous not to have extra ingress and egress out
of that complex.
MR. MILLS: Mr. Parsons succinctly said that.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Do you have any other
comments?
MR. LOUGHREN: That's it. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Anyone else? Anyone else
want to make another comment if you've already made
one? Okay. If Planning Board members don't have
any further comments, then I would move to close
the public hearing.
MR. MILLS: So moved.
MR. PARSONS: Second.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Moved and seconded to
close the public hearing. All in favor?
MR. PERILLO: Aye.
MR. MILLS: Aye.
MR. SIMONETTY: Aye.
MR. KELLER: Aye.
MR. PARSONS: Aye.
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Opposed?
(No Response)
CHAIRMAN HAWKSLEY: Motions carries. For
-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision- 30
your information, ladies and gentlemen, the written
comments will be received by the Planning Board
regarding this draft impact statement until October
5th. That is a ten day period to submit written
statements. The next step before the Planning
Board will be to determine whether the final impact
statement will be required. This will be done at a
future meeting of the Planning Board. That's it.
Thank you.
MR. LEVENSON: The other thing is that all
written comments postmarked up until October the
5th will be accepted by the Planning Board. That's
the direction we got from the D.E.C. attorneys.
(Whereupon the public hearing was concluded)
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-Public Hearing/Brookvale Subdivision-
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C-E-R-T-I-F-I-C-A-T-I-O-N
CERTIFIED TO BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE
RECORD OF THE WITHIN PROCEEDINGS AS
TAKEN AND TRANSCRIBED BY ME.
Robin E. DiMichele
Senior Court Reporter
\....t
